CTH, CTM, CTL, CT22 I'm thinking is H best?

[PreferrablyWood]

I'm making my big list for things to get. The big router OF 2200, the CMS with OF, and TS inserts, but under all this I'm worried about the ton of dust I'll be creating.. I don't think my CT Midi will be up to it, and I doubt the L classification is good enough, especielly if I start working in a shop with oak, teak, mdf, corian, larch. working with these materials create especielly dangerous dust, so I'm setting my sights on getting a CTH 26 E

Wood dust and asbestos dust are classified as H class...

So anyways in my shop I want to follow the recommendations. Especielly if business takes off and I need to have employees and may as well keep things in line with the rules..

Economically I can see that the price of the L,M,H machines aren't that much different from one another, what is more expensive is the Filterbags, they call them FIS-CTH 26/3, three bags cost $100 USD list, and have a different look. EDIT: My dealer has these bags for $56 USD including VAT

The filter it uses is named: HEPA-HF-CT 26/36/48 order nr. 498994. This is not compatible with autoclean.

My thoughts on the matter is as I'm mostly going to be doing woodworking, some renovations, sometimes I'm cleaning up locations after tearing down old wall, doing a limited amount of plastering..Cleaning up spaces where plastered or brick walls have deteriated and quarts dust has fallen of the walls. Sanding down painted surfaces that may contain lead.. I use a mask when ever I work with these things and when I sand even though I'm using my CT Midi..(non hepa in EU)

So it seems to me that this work demands the CTH series.. So in a way i don't really see how I can go with a CTL, CTM machine in the long run...

I plan on installing a general airfilter system in the shop as well, I notice that Axminster in the uk offers a unit for around 294 pounds for the top spec'd model;http://www.axminster.co.uk/jet-afs-1000b-air-filtration-system. From what I understand when using such a unit it's still important to vacum up dusts  and shaving  regularly that fall to the floor as a ceiling mounted aircleaner will cause fine dust to become airborne. Even after all this it's probably still important to use a dust mask while sanding..

So my thought is I may as well just get the CTH, the only hit economically that I can see is the cost of the bags, and the unit is not autoclean so if I did a lot of drywall, or brickwall repointing the CTH machine would not be useable here. I think though healthwise I'd rather have the maximum protection for sanding painted surfaces that may contain some lead, from cleaning up where there may be moulds, from old rotted floors or behind old wallpaper , oak dusts and other hazardous wood dusts..

I know that the machine is not going to catch all the dust at the creation point, but it is going to be used to vacum up the shop afterward as well. I'll likely layout my shop so that there is a minimum of dust traps. Right now I either work on site, or outside...

 

[PreferrablyWood]

Here is the info from the UK site:

Special application mobile dust extractor CLEANTEX CTH 26
CTH 26 E / a

Dust-free initiative
Items Included

    safety filter bag
    suction hose Ø 27 mm x 3,5 m-AS
    hose holder
    Sys dock
    cable holder
    in a carton

CTH 26 E / a
No chance for hazardous dust.

    Approved for dust category H and asbestos dust
    For carcinogenic and pathogenic dust
    Antistatic function prevents static developing during work
    Constantly high suction because of the compact high performance turbine
    Attachment of Systainers via Sys-Dock
    Hose garage and cable windup for greater tidiness and safety
    Economical, thanks to optimal utilisation of the filter bag in the container

Main applications

    For wood dust and dust with limit values < 0.1 mg/m³
    For carcinogenic and pathogenic dust
    Flexible and clean in the workshop and on-site thanks to compact design
    Integral automatic electronic switch-on/shut-off for extraction from electric power tools
    Suitable for both wet and dry extraction

I was actually thinking of getting a CTM 36 with autoclean and all the that but after reading a research the CTH model seemed like the only possibility, the CTH models only come in 26 and 48liter versions, and as I'm still going to be mobile based even when I have a shop, the CTH 26 E / a seems like the only choice. Again money is not the object here as the difference in price between the 26 and 48 liter version is not that much..

 

[PreferrablyWood]

Other than the Hepa filter and the Safety filter bags, the other main features that make this and H classification are outlined in the manual:

5 Intended use
The mobile dust extractor is suitable for the absorption
and suction of dust which is hazardous to
health with limit values corresponding to dust class
'H' in accordance with EN 60335-2-69, including
wood and paint dust.
The mobile dust extractor is suitable for the absorption
and suction of dust with carcinogenic and
pathogenic particles, as well as asbestos dust.
The mobile dust extractor is designed to absorb
water.
The mobile dust extractor is, in accordance with EN
60335-1 and EN 60335-2-69, suitable for increased
demands for commercial use.

There is a dust plug on the CTH hose attachment port so it doesn't spread contaminated material in storage or transport.

7.1 Adjusting the hose diameter
 Adjust the hose diameter adjuster [1-8] to
match the diameter of the connected hose.
 The monitoring devices will measure the air
speed in the extractor hose correctly as a result
(see chapter 7.9).

Specifications of the airflow by hose diameter
16 mm 14,5 4,0 20400 10300
22 mm 24,9 6,9 20000 13800
27 mm/ IAS 41,2 11,5 19600 17400
36 mm "AC" 57,9 16,1 17300 15800
36 mm 73,2 20,3 16200 15300
50 mm 141,3 39,5 8800 7600

7.9 Volumetric flow monitoring
An acoustic warning signal sounds if the air speed in the suction hose falls below 20 m/s.

Possible causes  (and) Solution

Value set on the suction power adjuster [1-9] is
too low.

Set the suction power adjuster to a higher value (see
Chapter 7.4).

Rotary knob [1-8] not set to the correct hose
diameter.

Set the knob to the correct hose diameter (see Chapter
7.1).

Suction hose blocked or kinked. Remove blockage or kink.

Filter bag full. Insert a new filter bag (see Chapter 7.7).

Dirty main filter. Changing the main filter (see Chapter 9.1).

Monitoring electronics malfunction. Send to a Festool service workshop for repair.

Wet extraction. Functional reliability not affected, no actions required. (seems like the unit will beep when used for wet extraction)

Another interesting point to remember is that the room needs to have an in-flow of fresh air so at least 50% of the air is renewed on a ongoing basis so you are not only breathing air that has been circulated through the machine.

Observe the following when extracting dust generated
by operating electric power tools:
If the exhaust air is discharged back into the room,
the air renewal rate L within the room must be sufficient.
The volume of air discharged back into the
room must not exceed 50% of the fresh air volume
flow (room volume VR x air renewal rate LW). Observe
all the relevant regional regulations.

Another point that may be unique to the CTH class is that the Filter not only snaps into place there are also to "safety screws" added to hold the filter in place. From the instructions for removing the Hepa filter: :

 Remove the two safety bolts [9-3]on the lever
[9-4]using a screwdriver.

I think the filter and the Safety filterbags have to be enclosed in plastic bags and delivered to a toxidisposal site.. In the instructions there is a section on removing the Safety Filter bag that has a plastic bag that is pulled over the Safety bag, I find it difficult to understand if the Safety bag includes this plastic bag and if it lays in the bottome of the dirt container or how it put together.. I makes sense though that they made provisions for this enclosing of the Safety bag especielly if it's used for vacumming up asbestos.. BTW in denmark almost all older farm buildings from the 60's-70's use a corrugated roofing material called eternit which contains asbestos..

They only name Oak and Beech dust as being directly hazardous but I would not fool around with exotic wood types either..

 

[AlexThePalex]

H is not best. At least not in your case.

The H class is really meant for hazzardous materials like asbestos, petroleum and other chemicals. That's a whole different category from wood dust. Wood dust is in class L.

So unless you have a company that specialises in cleaning up these hazzardous materials, you have little use for an H class vac.

Not that you can't use one, if you have your mind dead set on an H vac, no one's gonna stop you. But you're overspecced, your material is more expensive than is necessary, and the finer filters in the H vac might clog up faster than you'd like with wood use.

L and M class vacs are meant for wood and other non-hazzardous materials.

In Europe, since 3 or 4 years now, the M class vacs are mandatory for companies that work with wood.

L and M class vacs are almost the same, they have the same filters, but there is one small difference. Festool M vacs have an air flow indicator built in, while L vacs don't. That's it. L and M vacs filter the air to the exact same level, but when your bag fills up, the suction drops, and dust collection suffers. Comes in the M vac: the air flow indicator notices the drop in suction and sounds an alarm bell the user can hear so the user knows it is time to change the bag and get optimal performance again.

You can always get the HEPA filters for the L and M vacs, they provide even better filtration.

 

[AlexThePalex]

One general remark, whenever you want to buy something new, you write down an entire essay here, and I don't think that's necessary, most people here know the tools you talk about. If you keep it short, you will get more responses.

 

[carlb40]

While i cannot help with the choice of machine. One option over the bag issue could be to make/ buy your own cyclone to keep the waste to a minimum in the bags.
Another is the Thein separator. Either of which if you made yourself could be made from antistatic materials to avoid  voiding the warranty on the vac.  [smile]

 

[PreferrablyWood]

H is not best. At least not in your case.

The H class is really meant for hazzardous materials like asbestos, petroleum and other chemicals. That's a whole different category from wood dust. Wood dust is in class L.

So unless you have a company that specialises in cleaning up these hazzardous materials, you have little use for an H class vac.

Not that you can't use one, if you have your mind dead set on an H vac, no one's gonna stop you. But you're overspecced, your material is more expensive than is necessary, and the finer filters in the H vac might clog up faster than you'd like with wood use.

L and M class vacs are meant for wood and other non-hazzardous materials.

In Europe, since 3 or 4 years now, the M class vacs are mandatory for companies that work with wood.

L and M class vacs are almost the same, they have the same filters, but there is one small difference. Festool M vacs have an air flow indicator built in, while L vacs don't. That's it. L and M vacs filter the air to the exact same level, but when your bag fills up, the suction drops, and dust collection suffers. Comes in the M vac: the air flow indicator notices the drop in suction and sounds an alarm bell the user can hear so the user knows it is time to change the bag and get optimal performance again.

You can always get the HEPA filters for the L and M vacs, they provide even better filtration.

I'm getting the vac mostly for wood, but I also do alot of sanding of old painted surfaces, also use the vac on mortar and brick dust. These two activities are the ones that have me worried..

Thanks Alex for the interesting and important points you bring up here, it helps me zero in on the differences between the L,M,H classes The Festool vacs for these classes have prices that are  close enough to one another to make the economics  an  non-identifying factor.

The only thing in your post then is that some weight that would sway me away from getting the H class is that the "filters may clog up faster" I don't think the H classes are rated to clean up petroleum,  for dry flamable dusts it's the "22" class. For explosive fluids I don't think there is any Festool vac that is spec'd for that job..

Just as you can use the HEPA filters in the L and M class so can you also use the normal filters in the H class..

I think I like the alarm warning funtion as it takes the guesswork out of knowing when the suction is optimal..

In the documentention it is mentioned that you have to use the Safety Filter bags to maintian H class standards, but there's nothing that say that you can't use the normal SelfClean bags if you have a solid knowledge based reason not to use them.. For example if your working outside.

Thanks for your careful and knowledgeable reply!

Btw I've worked with rather obnoxious dusts for over 20 years, wearing dust masks on average of 6 hours a week for the last 12 years.. So as I age I don't want to add any more irrritants respiratory system than humanely possible..

 

[PreferrablyWood]

One general remark, whenever you want to buy something new, you write down an entire essay here, and I don't think that's necessary, most people here know the tools you talk about. If you keep it short, you will get more responses.

You are so right on this, I take your point seriously, but in some threads I might find it hard to change, as although these posts area a question to more experienced users, I also these "essays" to help myself work through a learning curve about the systems I'm considering. It motivates me to think things through, and I suspect some newbies can find something they can use in it.. Once of done the "essay" I can get on with thinking about other subjects and know that I can return and reread what I've written, modify and correct the mistakes, cut out the garbage..

And the more expeirenced may get a laugh or two or shake their heads at my wrong headed ideas or what I time waster I am!!

 

[PreferrablyWood]

While i cannot help with the choice of machine. One option over the bag issue could be to make/ buy your own cyclone to keep the waste to a minimum in the bags.
Another is the Thein separator. Either of which if you made yourself could be made from antistatic materials to avoid  voiding the warranty on the vac.  [smile]

I thought of that and for in shop use it will be something I'll look into and implement...

It's also something that has crossed my mind for as like you say "keep the waste to a miniumum in the bags" A great money saver!

Thanks for your insight!

 

[AlexThePalex]

I don't think the H classes are rated to clean up petroleum, that likely the "22" class.

Just as you can use the HEPA filters in the L and M class so can you also use the normal filters in the H class..

Can't say I know that much about the H class, I never use that stuff. I just read H is good for stuff like asbestos, molds and spilled flammable liquids.

What exactly is this "22" class you mention?

 

[PreferrablyWood]

I don't think the H classes are rated to clean up petroleum, that likely the "22" class.

Just as you can use the HEPA filters in the L and M class so can you also use the normal filters in the H class..

Can't say I know that much about the H class, I never use that stuff. I just read H is good for stuff like asbestos, molds and spilled flammable liquids.

Zone 22 is explosive dusts so the machines need to have antistatic features in the motors that don't create sparks.. The usual antistatic hoses are already good enough for Zone 22..

What exactly is this "22" class you mention?

For maximum safety.

    Approved for dust category L
    Conforms with ATEX Directive 94/9/EC for Zone 22 – dust from explosion classes St1, St2 and St3 is reliably extracted
    Antistatic function prevents static developing during work
    EC-TEC motor for continuous use
    Attachment of Systainers via Sys-Dock
    Cable holder to keep things tidy
    Economical because of the optimal use of the available volume with a SELFCLEAN filter bag in the container
    With integrated connection for EAA and compressed air tools

Mobile dust extractor CLEANTEX CT 48 EC B22
CTL 48 E LE EC/B22

Main applications

    For dust with limit values > 1 mg/m³
    Extraction of dry, flammable dust in zone 22
    Integral automatic electronic switch-on/shut-off for extraction from electric and pneumatic tools
    Suitable for both wet and dry extraction

 

[wrightwoodwork]

The M class is the one to go for. I agree with Alex about the H being way over specced for your needs. I not 100% sure of the rules but I have a feeling if you did come across a situation where you needed to use H class. It would not be just a simple case of H standard vac. If there was say asbestos or some other kind of hazardous waste. I'm pretty sure you would need a hazardous waste removal licence. Plus all the other things legal. On a job I was on there asbestos to be removed they basically made a sealed box over it. Then they had to do air pressure tests so the air pressure inside was lower than outside and the hazard couldn't escape.  Not too sure what else they had to do as I was busy doing my own work elsewhere. So unless you want to specialise in that sort of work get all the license and paper work H is not really needed. My thinking on it is very simple if it requires H class I don't touch. I'll happily walk away from it and somebody else can have the problem

 

[PreferrablyWood]

The M class is the one to go for. I agree with Alex about the H being way over specced for your needs. I not 100% sure of the rules but I have a feeling if you did come across a situation where you needed to use H class. It would not be just a simple case of H standard vac. If there was say asbestos or some other kind of hazardous waste. I'm pretty sure you would need a hazardous waste removal licence. Plus all the other things legal. On a job I was on there asbestos to be removed they basically made a sealed box over it. Then they had to do air pressure tests so the air pressure inside was lower than outside and the hazard couldn't escape.  Not too sure what else they had to do as I was busy doing my own work elsewhere. So unless you want to specialise in that sort of work get all the license and paper work H is not really needed. My thinking on it is very simple if it requires H class I don't touch. I'll happily walk away from it and somebody else can have the problem

Good points... I'm looking at the CTH 26 vac, physcially it's pretty well identical to the CTM class vacum the difference is the Filter and the Safety filterbags, this is reflected in the price difference between the H and M class vacums only being about 80 pounds..

I agree you don't become an H class certified company by owning one H class vacum.. But I disagree that you won't come across, toxic dust in smaller quatities around most old building renovations..Leadpaints, moulds, bacteria from old sewage spills, waste from rat pigeon etc..

 

[GarryMartin]

Staubklasse L, M and H are German standards relating to health in the workplace from an organization called BIA.

Class L is suitable for general work.

Class M is specifically for mineral dust, man-made wood-based dust, oak and beech woods.

Class H is used with anything that is a known carcinogen or has known health related effects. (Lead, cadmium, asbestos etc.)

In the UK, recommendations for managing dust from woodworking come from the Health & Safety Executive under the guise of the Control of Substances Hazardous to Health (COSHH). The following publications has some good advice.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis23.pdf

From a Festool extractor perspective, given the information you've provided, it sounds like an M class of extractor would be the one to go for.

But in my own industry (IT) we often use the terminology "defense in depth" when it comes to security. A higher classification extractor doesn't negate the need to consider Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) and if I was doing anything where the dust had particular health hazards associated with it, I'd be using PPE suitable for my protection.

 

[PreferrablyWood]

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis23.pdf

From a Festool extractor perspective, given the information you've provided, it sounds like an M class of extractor would be the one to go for.

But in my own industry (IT) we often use the terminology "defense in depth" when it comes to security. A higher classification extractor doesn't negate the need to consider Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) and if I was doing anything where the dust had particular health hazards associated with it, I'd be using PPE suitable for my protection.

The L,M,H designations are EU wide now I believe, just recently adopted.. I like the standard as it makes it easier to understand what we're dealing with when communicating on the issue of workplace safety..

I like the term "Defense in depth" That's why I also use dustmasks when I'm sanding painted surfaces or hardwoods or sawing MDF, plywood,hardwoods, even when I'm using my dust extractor, the CT Midi with the Self Clean bag..

 

[PreferrablyWood]

After thinking this through after the input from GarryMartin, wrightwoodwork and Alex, it seems there is no practical reason to go the CTH machine, I get the same effect of the CTH with a CTM machine by using the Hepa filter, which the one I'm going for comes with, and using the SafetyFilter bags which it seems to me are just bags where there is a outer plastic bag that folds up around the Filterbag for disposal. Finally the CTM maschine doesn't have the alarm for loss of suction, which I don't think I need as hazadous dust is not even going to comprise 1/10 of my usage, so I can manually check if things are working or not at the tool..

I save about 100 pounds by going with the CTM and that can be put toward a workshop airfilter system, or a dust deputy or similiar..

 

[Frank-Jan]

... Finally the CTM maschine doesn't have the alarm for loss of suction,...

Yes, it does..., it's what sets it apart from the CTL.

 

[PreferrablyWood]

... Finally the CTM maschine doesn't have the alarm for loss of suction,...

Yes, it does..., it's what sets it apart from the CTL.

Okay thanks Frank-Jan.. So I'm finding it hard to figure out what physically is different between the CTM and CTH vacs, is it just the sticker, the filter and the Safety bags alone? Seems too simple.