Curious about planes

[ShawnR]

Still reading and taking a break from practicing my joinery...

I came across a few articles by Christopher Schwarz and he seems very pro hand tool. I am curious if his statements are true, that in most cases a skilled craftsman could finish in roughly the same time as one using power tools. I would assume this would really depend on how large a project you are talking about and how much rough lumber you are working with.

Then, can you really get a finish as good as from sand paper or better using planes and a cabinet scraper? What criteria do they use to define a finish that is better? Ahh, so much knowledge to gain young grasshopper.

Cheers,

Shawn

 

[johnbro]

The productivity question is too broad for a single answer. Sometimes it's a lot faster to whip out a hand plane or saw than to set up a power tool or jig. I think FWW recently had a shoot-out of two guys doing tenons by hand vs table saw. The table saw was like 20 minutes, the guy cutting them by hand was over an hour. duh! if hand tools were consistently faster, people wouldn't have switched over to power tools in commercial shops. I think you can get a different kind of experience and pleasure from using hand tools than from power tools.

The scraper vs sandpaper question is a matter of personal taste, IMO. Krenov hated sandpaper and wanted only smoothing planes for a finish. he also hated almost any kind of finishing material like BLO or varnish; his recipe for protecting the wood was extremely diluted coats of shellac. Would that be practical for a kitchen table in a house with small children? Of course not...

Personally I think there's a place for all of it: power tools, hand tools, scraping, and sanding. Whatever floats your boat!

 

[AlexThePalex]

Of course this is a complete no-brainer. Of course power tools are a lot faster then hand tools. Ever try to make, for instance, a dado by hand? Good luck, it's a treat. I think I'll take the router instead.

Doesn't mean they are necessarily faster or more suited for every job. Hand tools still have a big place in woodworking too.

I Googled around a bit and stumbled upon this video where the Woodwhisperer interviews Chris Schwarz. From what he says there, I it doesn't seem to me like he's so opposed to powertools and most certainly understands their added value.

Woodworking #54 - Chris Schwarz from Popular Woodworking 

 

[ShawnR]

It may help to clarify.. I am about 6 weeks into woodworking.  I have not bought a router yet.  I have the t55, c12, and just picked up a rotex. My reasoning for posting is finding out from people who actually do this for a living or are serious hobbyist and not just a writer for FWW(nothing against being a writer, but at the end of the day they are a business and by default have a vested interest in doing reviews).

As I continue to buy tools, I am looking to get the most bang for buck, both in quality and in time. Looking back now, a course, medium and fine plane from Lie-Nielsen plus scrapers would have cost just about as much as a Rotex. From what I am currently reading, I am not sure I made the 'best' choice for me. I know as I practice more I will be able to better discern on my own which path is better for my me. For the time being, I am making purchases based on 30-60 minutes worth of testing. And, at 400-800 per purchase,  I can certainly use as much data and advice as possible.

Cheers,

Shawn

 

[AlexThePalex]

Shawn, if you're a beginning woodworker, I wouldn't spend so much money on expensive tools if I were you. First learn to do all the basics with cheap tools, and when you're really sure that you like woodworking and developed your own way of doing things, you can upgrade your inventory. If you just buy a lot of stuff out of the blue, then I think you're gonna be disappointed at some stage.

For instance, take the Domino, or any other doweling tool/jig. I've seen some starting hobbyists here comment how they bought a Domino as one of their first tools. I think such a thing isn't the wisest to do. You can start out with using very cheap dowel markers and drill bits with a depth collar to get the same results. Just an example of how you can spend $10 instead of $800 and still get going, as a hobbyist. 

 

[The Dude]

I have always loved going to this site.  Extremely informative about the old Stanley's:

Patrick's Blood and Gore

Timmy C

 

[rwdawson]

Shawn,

The answer to your question, as well as those to follow, will depend a great deal on your perspective.  If speed is important to you, then you will come down on the power tool side because there is no question that in many situations, power tools are faster. If a slower, more contemplative approach appeals to you, then hand tools start to look better.

Regarding issues like this, woodworkers seem to be divided into three groups: 1) The power tools only folks, inspired by Norm Abram, 2) Hand tool freaks, following the teachings of Roy Underhill, 3) The wood working equivalent of a bisexual and/or cross dresser, which is where most of us reside, without shame, I might add.  Chris Schwarz does lean toward hand tools, but he is clearly in the third group and I suspect he might be amused by the metaphor.  (There is no evidence that he, or any other woodworker I know, is a bisexual cross dresser.  In this matter, we tend to be strong advocates of Don't Ask, Don't Tell.)

My two favorite forums are this one, where information regarding power tools in general and Festool in particular exceeds any other place I am aware of, and the one that Chris maintains for Woodworking Magazine, http://www.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/.  Chris is my current favorite writer on matters relating to wood, one I highly recommend.

As for Lie-Nielsen planes, they are some of the finest tools available.  Most Festoolies are L-N admirers, as well. The wood working equivalent of a bisexual and/or cross dresser usually has expensive and exquisite taste. Funny how some things never change.

The points made so far, as well as the ones to follow, are all valid.  Keep reading and testing.  And learning.

Regards,

Richard

 

[chrisrosenb]

Still reading and taking a break from practicing my joinery...

I came across a few articles by Christopher Schwarz and he seems very pro hand tool. I am curious if his statements are true, that in most cases a skilled craftsman could finish in roughly the same time as one using power tools. I would assume this would really depend on how large a project you are talking about and how much rough lumber you are working with.

Then, can you really get a finish as good as from sand paper or better using planes and a cabinet scraper? What criteria do they use to define a finish that is better? Ahh, so much knowledge to gain young grasshopper.

Cheers,

Shawn

I think the qualifying words in Christopher's statement are "a skilled craftsman".
I learned woodworking in the late 60s & early 70s & learned using mostly hand tools. You can get a very good finish with well tuned hand tools. A large part of learning to use hand tools is learning to keep them tuned up.
Keeping hand tools tuned up takes a lot of time. I very seldom use hand tools anymore. With the high quality of power tools, cutters & sandpaper now available, I can do a better job & do it quicker than using hand tools.

 

 

[peter halle]

Shawn,

Is it possible to get as good a finish with a sander and sandpaper.  Absolutely.  Going away from the woodworking world - look at cars.  Look at the finishes that require sanding and polishing to be achieved.  They don't use planes on cars nor scrapers.  You can achieve a finish with sandpaper so slick that a finish will have trouble sticking - or such that you don't need a finish at all.

The question of working as quickly one way or another.  I couldn't use hand tools as quickly.  I haven't and won't devote the time to learn.  That being said, I respect those who do.  Maybe one day I can work with wood for pure pleasure versus financial reward and can learn to enjoy the interaction between hand tools and wood.

Peter

 

[Wood_Junkie]

I'm a power tool kind of WW'er.  I'll always head for the bandsaw or the SCMS before thinking to pick up a hand saw.  Drill is in hand before I even remember what a brace or gimlet is! (not that I own either!)  However, hand tools have their place, even among the heretical non-purists (myself included).

For example, it's a lot faster and easier (Festool way!) to grap a block plane and trim 1/16" off a board, or to ease an edge, than to setup a cutting jig or the tablesaw.
On the other hand, it's a lot more precise (and maybe faster) to take 1/4" off a *door* with the TS55 then to use a hand plane.

Sanding versus scraping... Two different techniques to accomplish the same result: Remove some material and prep it for finish.  Scrapers take material off and create a smooth top surface.  Sanding scratches the surface, and you progress to finer and finer grits.  You can take off quite a bit of material with a scraper in a short amount of time, and the surface stays quite nice.  But it takes a lot of time and effort to hand scrape a large panel, versus sanding with a 6" machine. 

Essential hand tools in my mind:  a couple flavors of planes, but a LA (low-angle) block plane first and foremost; Japanese style pull saw; western hand saw; bench chisels; scraper

 

[BlueMaxx]

Curious discussion...I am actually a hand tool user getting ready to move into the Festool world...why? Because of time.
I know alot of handtool users and all (whether they care to admit it or not) burn electrons at some point in a project.
Now if we are speaking predominately of joinery, then I would agree to an extent.
If one is creating a "one off" piece, then it could be faster to cut say your drawers DT by hand. However there are SO many variable invlolved I doubt it. So much has to do with proficiency.
If one is creating a large project with mutiple drawers, pieces and such, I just do not see it being faster by hand.
Getting away from joinery into finish, debates rage over whether "hand finished" is different. By that I mean scraping for final prep vs. sanding. I think much depends on species and skill.
Even farther away with selecting, dimmensioning and prepping stock then powertools are the way to go IMHO.
I will say that I have learned quite a lot form working with handtools. I think it is an intimate way to work with wood. I have made things where using handtools were really the only way to do something. I am also a "tool junkie" and love artisan made tools, so this is a draw for me with handtools.
In the end making something is the goal. I get an endorphine release either way!! [tongue]

Mike

 

[Jesse Cloud]

Hey Shawn,
Well, you have just opened two cans of worms by posing two of the most contentious debates in our beloved craft:  "power tools or hand tools?" and "should I buy expensive tools to start?"

These two questions are subject to such heated debate because there is no single right answer.  To make things worse, you could save a huge amount of time and money if you knew now whether you would continue woodworking and if so whether you would enjoy using hand tools.

Just about everyone, including Chris Schwartz, uses machines for the rough work (jointing, planing, rough width and length cuts).  Unless you fall into the extreme hand-tools-only crew, you will need a jointer, a planer, and a bandsaw if you mean to do fine woodworking.  Just about everyone has a few handtools as well.  A good low angle block plane (e.g. Lie Nielsen  knockoff of the Stanley 60 1/2) can be had for about $150 and a good Japanese pull saw for less than $50, scrapers are cheap and the burnisher to go with it can be just about any piece of metal harder than the scraper itself.  The advice above to hold off on special purpose hand tools is good.  I have done many dados with a plow plane and they are crisper and cleaner than those done with routers, but that's not for everyone and certainly not an efficient way to do them, nor will the client see them when you are done.

The other question of when to buy tools and whether to buy high quality tools is just as sensitive.  Personally I wasted a lot of money and my time buying crappy tools.  It takes a very skilled craftsman to make a crappy tool work well.  Most of those early crappy tools are in the land fill now or in the hands of some craigslist buyer thinking he got a bargain.  There's a saying "Buy quality and cry once, buy trash and cry again and again."  Quality tools have excellent resale value.  I have every Festool I ever bought still in the shop except one, which was a fine tool but just didn't fit the way I work.  I sold that tool for about 10% more than I paid for it

 

[Gaijin Daiku]

I started writing a reply earlier this morning and it was quickly turning into a self-obsessed dissertation.  Here's the short(er) version

My opinion?

I like the finish I get with hand planes, but sandpaper does have a place in my shop.

As was said earlier, get a good block plane.  I own LN and Veritas. Both are very nice, but the Veritas has a few engineering details that are nice; blade set screws and Norris-type adjuster.

I own (old) Stanley, ECE, Ulmia, HNT Gordon, and Japanese planes.  Yes, I use them all...but if I had to pick one smoothing plane, it would be the HNT Gordon.  The blade is reversible and can be used as both a high angle (60 deg) and scraping (90 deg) plane.  Since you're in the ATL, Highland Hardware carries the HNT planes.

There is no point in buying a plane or chisel without the means to sharpen.  I'll spare the forum the details, but I've invested a ton of time learning how to hand sharpen and have spent more money than I care to admit on sharpening stones...including some nice Japanese natural stones.  What I tell my carpenter friends here in Philadelphia to get is:

The Complete Guide To Sharpening by Leonard Lee--far and away, the best primer on the subject.

Norton 1000# Stone

Norton 8000# Stone

Norton 4000# Stone, if you're feeling flush...it is a good intermediate stone, but not necessary.

Granite surface plate to keep the stones flat

Veritas Mark II sharpening jig--it is not cheap, but it works VERY well.

Hope this helps steer you...

--Bruce

 

 

[Wood_Junkie]

All very well put Jesse Cloud.  [thumbs up]

 

[PaulMarcel]

I agree with everything posted so far, just a hesitation with the "buy cheap first".  Since the OP already bought some expensive Festools and plans more, it can be assumed he can afford them and we aren't telling a starving student to buy a $400 circular saw.  If you can afford it, buying the quality tools first is by far better than wasting money on a tool that will only irritate you and ultimately have no resale value (i.e., a loss in all respects).  Follow a bunch of Festool auctions on eBay and you'll see that few auctions don't get within 7-10% of the new price.

That said, don't buy the whole Festool catalog before getting going.  You could easily build stuff now with a minimum of other tools and your TS-55, you could build shop cabinets to gain some skill and learn the tools.  Alex's point about using a drill and dowels before a Domino works here.

Hand tool suggestions so far are good.  I'd add a flush trim saw.  I also agree with the comment that LN and Veritas are both great for planes, but Veritas doesn't just duplicate an old design, they innovate a little (e.g., the Veritas shoulder plane has a handle that swings so you can use it from an upright position; the LN cloned the original and later, after the Veritas release, made the hotdog attachment available for theirs).

 

[woodguy7]

Although a own a vast array of Festool products, i like to use hand tools as much as possible.  I feel it keeps the "craft" alive.  If you turn up on a job site with no electricity or generators then you have to revert to hand tools.  If all you know is power tools, then you are kinda scr*%d.  Every apprentice i have had has had to learn to do finishings by hand & if they ever tried to go near a chop saw they were in trouble  [smile].  Power tools should be a progression after one has mastered hand tools.

As for the quality of finish between sandpaper & hand planes !  You will never get a finish from sandpaper as good as a properly sharpened hand plane will produce.  With sandpaper you are putting in scratches to remove scratches, albeit finer scratches each time but still scratches.  You will never see a high end furniture maker using sandpaper on a piece of high end furniture.  I use sanders a lot & you can get a remarkably good finish with them, but you wont ever get it as good as a slice from a sharp blade.

Just my thoughts on the subject,

Woodguy.

 

[kfitzsimons]

My 2 cents worth - on tools, I'd suggest purchasing power tools on Craigslist when possible.  You can purchase almost new tools for 50% of new price.  You just need to know what you're looking at and test it if possible. I've found Festool products a couple of times on CL. On purchasing really good tools new, at least you've INVESTED your money ONCE. That is if you stay with woodworking.  You've spent your money wisely.  If you decide to get out of WW, at least you can recoup a good percentage of your investment.  With cheap tools, you won't enjoy it as much, and your money is down the drain.  Nobody wants to buy cheap tools second hand.  I enjoy purchasing and using really nice tools as much as I like the finished products.  Plus, when I have a new honey-do project, I generally need a new tool to do it! Win - win situation.

 

[Wood_Junkie]

Oye, between Festool and Veritas, I could go broke in a hurry.  And be a happy beaver doing it.   [big grin]

While I totally agree about buying quality first, there is a certain "rite of passage" to moving up the tool food chain, no?

For example, how could one possible, *truly* appreciate the Festool advantage of a TS55 and CT, without having first learned the aches of a cheapie circular saw, dust thrown in your face and around the room, and the pain of screaming noise whilst cutting?  How can one know that the 'faster, easier, smarter' is true, if you aren't first forced to perform onerous cleanup of bad cuts, tearout, following by sanding, repainting, and then vacuuming the whole room?

My wife asked me the other day:  "Do you feel your woodworking justifies having the best tools in the world?"  (I had recently given her a short lecture on the upgrading/graduation to Festool I've been doing over the last six months).

I said:  "No.  But the woodworking I *want* to do justifies it.  Bummer I'm still stuck on mostly home renovation tasks!"... instead of the enjoyable side of the hobby.

 

[Wood_Junkie]

If you turn up on a job site with no electricity or generators then you have to revert to hand tools.  If all you know is power tools, then you are kinda scr*%d. 

ROFL, then you've got to make sure the city inspectors didn't pull the meter, and perhaps get the heck out of there!    [scared]

 

[johnbro]

A point not yet mentioned I believe is that many hand tools can be obtained used for a fraction of the cost of high-quality new ones, and in many cases, those used tools are better than new. For example, modern Stanley planes are widely regarded as crap, but those produced prior to WWII are quite good. They probably will require some tuning, but you can find people on eBay and places like woodnet that do it for you and sell them to you for far less than a new Veritas or LN plane would cost. I've got a brand new LN 4 1/2 as well as a century old Stanley #4 and they both work beautifully, but the Stanley was 10% of the cost of the LN...