Debating tablesaw...

[mino]

...
An MFT with the ability to use dogs would help with being able to probably get good 90*’s, I suspect, as MFT users say it’s bang on.
...

Bench dogs specifically are an inherently inaccurate system. They may be good-enough and better than usig a square all the time. But they are no accuracy champs.

Once you get under the 0.005"/feet level of accuracy space, the dogs interface with the table as well as the micro-dents the softer material will get from dogs start to matter and they limit how accurate you can get no matter what. It may be good enough, but it has its inherent limits which are not present with the full-edge-interface approaches like a table saw or a PGS.

For best (portable) squareness on the market, you want something like the TSO GRS 16 with metal-on-metal connection of the square arms and even then you may want the extension "L" piece to increase the reference edge with the material. I can get

 

[JeremyH.]

I have this. But with out the parallel guides I'm not so sure with it. One of my panels came out well, one was not good. Still need to play with the mafell to see how much deflection it has. My experience with Festool rails was basically none.

 

[Cheese]

I guess I'm just having a difficult time understanding this situation. I've used Mafell rails and have cut sheet goods to within a width of  .5 mm over 48".

I also use TSO guides on the Festool rails and I can duplicate those results.

I guess, the question is, is there a tolerance you need to maintain and over what length must that be maintained? That's a question that is easier to answer for the forum members.  [smile]

That answer will also determine what method would be the best for you to pursue.

 

[JeremyH.]

I just checked and that is about the amount of deflection I can get out of the Mafell rail. It's kinda of a lot when you're doing a speaker box. I know it seems like little bit on a table saw I was use to imperceptible over 48".

 

[Banana]

“I’m afraid the Mafell tracks don't keep perfectly straight at lengths over a couple feet…”

For any accurate cut I always clamp at both ends.  If you don’t wish to clamp I’ve read you can add a strip of Festool grip tape to the bottom of any Bosch / Mafell rail (meaning in addition to Mafell’s / Bosch’s own grip ribs).  There’s a single slot underneath where it fits.
I can’t see how the tracks would not be straight past “a couple feet” unless they are slipping.  Maybe clean the rubber, check your saw feed rate, if cutting atop a sacrificial surface make sure it is held securely with material as well,  etc. (?)

Every method requires some technique but like others have said a benchdog system can introduce a lot of variables if you’re relying on them to be drop in automatic precision.

 

[JeremyH.]

When you square from one end the deflection at the other at 48 inches could be .5mm or such. That's what I'm talking about. You can pull/push to pencil marks but the small amounts of flex in the whole thing means the splinter guard has tiny amounts of variance (this is verified by the fact you can get a little bit of red bits for awhile into the use of the track).

The track however does not move when sawing. That is the one thing I've never had happen with any track as far as I can tell.

 

[Cheese]

Well I’m an older audio guy so I can understand the need for precision.

If a speaker cabinet is leaking air, it’s also leaking sound fidelity. That’s the reason ALL JBL cabinets were constructed with a mitre lock joint for the corners.

 

[Cypren]

For what it’s worth, I’ll also endorse the TSO squares and parallel guide sets. I did half a dozen identical 2 meter long rips with them yesterday and got a skew of 0.2mm over the length of the cut, with repeatability variance below 0.1mm across all six boards.

Getting results like this does require that you spend some effort on properly calibrating them up front: I used gauge blocks for both setting the stops and the position of the track. But once dialed in, they’re phenomenally accurate.

 

[mino]

I guess I'm just having a difficult time understanding this situation. I've used Mafell rails and have cut sheet goods to within a width of  .5 mm over 48".
..

The FS/2 rails are about twice as stiff as the Maffel rails due to being wider. That also makes them bulkier and heavier, so it is not for free ...
After our big purchase we were comparing 2-3 rails from each make with a friend, and the Maffel and FS/2 were straight to similar accuracy while Makita ones were deviating form a straight edge about twice as much. All were new or almost-new. A small selection, but given Makita rails are 1/2 the cost it makes sense.

The sum we got was that on short cuts, FS/2 and Maffel turn out about the same with Makita trailing due to the manufacturing allowances gap.  On longer (above 5' or so) cuts the FS/2 is best, with Makita and Maffel being comparable - Makita catches up with stiffness to otherwise more accurately made Maffel rails.

I guess this is also why Maffel does not make a 3000 mm rail. The profile is too narrow for such a rail to be stable. And when one is using connectors, he will be careful to not over-stress the joint so the stiffness is adequate. But I would not connect 3x 1600 and expect good results without some secondary straightening.

Even with my FS/2 at 3000 mm, I take great care to not create lateral stresses when placing the rail. The Festool strips are very grippy on wood. With the rail freely placed on material, they can create enough lateral stress for the 3000 rail to bend by about 0.2-0.3mm on its length if you just pull on one end to move it to a mark without lifting the rail a bit. That adds to the rail inherent inaccuracy of a similar order.

It is impossible to get better without making the rails even wider which will kill portability. So do not see any maker going that way.

 

[hoe]

Do you find that you are able to get complete accuracy when running long stock, be it sheet goods or boards, using a table saw? How many posts have i read on different forums of users having difficulty with blade and fence alignments on table saws. For me i have used a table saw for over 50 years and a track saw for only about 3 years and if i am working with sheet goods today it will be my track saw that i will reach for. If i had to get rid of either my table saw or track saw, it would be my table saw that would be going.

I am really enjoying the nearly dust free cuts i can get with my tracks that i can't hope to get with my table saw.

 

[egmiii]

[member=49284]JeremyH.[/member] Have you considered a Hammer K3 31" x 31"? Personally, I'd consider a 48" slider at a minimum, but if space is tight, this is a great option. They come up used every now and then. If you call Felder, they sometimes have a demo unit at a reduced price, or at the very least, can offer you a decent discount on a new one. If repeatable precision is what you are looking for, sliders deliver.

 

[JeremyH.]

When you push a lot of sheet good through a tablesaw you get use to it IMO. The end product if the side started straight would be imperceptibly different from other pieces cut to the same size. As long as you can push it through up against the fence that was my experience.

However that doesn't mean the tablesaw started that way. You have to measure and adjust it all to be JUST right against engineered squares etc. And you have to be comfortable with the weight of sheet goods etc. People like sliding cabinet saws and for crosscuts they're the best thing ever, but for rip cuts if you know what you're doing and your outfeed is big enough... you can push those things through as fast as you can get them on the table.

The TSO parallel guides look realllllllyyyy nice... that with a TSO square and Festool track are gaining appeal.

 

[JeremyH.]

[member=49284]JeremyH.[/member] Have you considered a Hammer K3 31" x 31"? Personally, I'd consider a 48" slider at a minimum, but if space is tight, this is a great option. They come up used every now and then. If you call Felder, they sometimes have a demo unit at a reduced price, or at the very least, can offer you a decent discount on a new one. If repeatable precision is what you are looking for, sliders deliver.

I would love one but they don't exactly make mobile bases for them. Maybe some day.

 

[egmiii]

You're in luck. They make a mobile base for the K3.
https://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-...es/Rolling-Carriages-without-Lifting-Bar.html

 

[JeremyH.]

You're in luck. They make a mobile base for the K3.
https://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-...es/Rolling-Carriages-without-Lifting-Bar.html

PRETTY sure that isn't what that is...

 

[egmiii]

Actually it is. The machine rests on the chassis when parked. What isn't shown is a wheeled lifting bar that is used to elevate the machine onto the 2 plastic wheels shown in the previous link. Trust me, it works. I have the exact same setup on my Felder bandsaw and have personally used this carriage in the showroom while evaluating the K3. It works very well.

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

Actually it is. The machine rests on the chassis when parked. What isn't shown is a wheeled lifting bar that is used to elevate the machine onto the 2 plastic wheels shown in the previous link. Trust me, it works. I have the exact same setup on my Felder bandsaw and have personally used this carriage in the showroom while evaluating the K3. It works very well.

I can confirm this, Felder uses the same hardware pack for the rolling carriage for all of their Hammer machines, and a separate hardware kit for the Felder machines (at least for the 500 and 700 series). Not linked is the lifting bar, found here:https://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-...bar.html?force_sid=h33a674hc2hvo74b8c33gsgtr7

I have the equivalent setup on my KF700, and find it quite easy/convenient to shift my machine around the Shop as I dial-in its final location. I have the Hammer rolling carriage on my A3-41, and a similar setup on my Laguna LT14SUV. I happen to really like this style of mobile base/"rolling carriage", and prefer it to the more common configuration of a frame with wheels.

 

[JeremyH.]

Cool.

I doubt I'll be able to get one though, still, at least anytime soon.

 

[egmiii]

I hear you. It's not a good fit for most hobbyists, mainly because of cost and the space required for larger sliders. But they sure are sweet if your budget and shop allows for it.

I like my TS55 for sheet goods up to 3/4". Complete game changer. But it's very underpowered for edging 8/4 slabs. I've also never been successful at long miter cuts. That's where the slider really shines.

 

[Michael Kellough]

When you push a lot of sheet good through a tablesaw you get use to it IMO. The end product if the side started straight would be imperceptibly different from other pieces cut to the same size. As long as you can push it through up against the fence that was my experience.

However that doesn't mean the tablesaw started that way. You have to measure and adjust it all to be JUST right against engineered squares etc. And you have to be comfortable with the weight of sheet goods etc. People like sliding cabinet saws and for crosscuts they're the best thing ever, but for rip cuts if you know what you're doing and your outfeed is big enough... you can push those things through as fast as you can get them on the table.

The TSO parallel guides look realllllllyyyy nice... that with a TSO square and Festool track are gaining appeal.

And if the edge you put against the fence is straight to start with the fresh cut will be straight and parallel too. So, either you put a fresh straight cut on the panel with a tracksaw or you use a huge slider and make it straight.

You are right about the TSO kit but if I were you I’d get a small tablesaw before investing that much money in additional tracksaw stuff.