Defective Festool tape measure / looking for suggestions on options

[gotallie]

I am looking for an accurate metric tape measure.  From the attached photo you may be able to see the defect at 353-354mm mark on this Festool tape measure.  This tape weaves in and out of accuracy along its length due to these defects.  This is actually one of the least troublesome defects on this tape measure.  Another example is at 1024mm also in an attached photo.  I contacted BMI, the manufacturer of this tape measure, and the gentleman I talked to said there would be no significant quality improvements in any of their branded tape measures if I bought one from them.  (He must like his job!  Or not.  Good grief.)  Why be in that business if this is the best they can produce.

So does anyone have a suggestion for a high quality, accurate metric tape measure?  At this point I don’t think price is a factor.

Before anyone suggests Fastcap; I have several of their imperial tapes and I like them but they were handpicked from dozens of the units in stock in order to find those that matched and agreed with my shop rulers.  The local dealer does not stock enough metric units for this and believe me I tried. 

 

[gkaiseril]

Many wood workers use the same tape measurer through out a single job just because of this problem. Use the same rule to measure twice and mark once. That way if there is any irregularity, by using the same mark the irregularity is accounted for.

It may also account for why many woodworkers that have to repeat a given setup use templates or story sticks.

For framing this might not be a big issue but in finish carpentry this is a big problem.

 

[gotallie]

We do all of that here.  But there are other measuring devices in use that all must agree such as Woodpecker saddle squares, Starrett squares and calipers, BridgeCityTools rulers...  There has to be at least one tape measure that agrees with all of these tools and this tape measure ain't it.

We have such accuracy with imperial tools, but with the work flow moving primary to Festool we need the same accuracy in metric.  This tape measure does not even agree with the festool fences or routing template scales so it is of limited use.  Uh, make that of no use.

 

[joiner1970]

Wow.....don't think I've ever checked a tape measure in my life lol

I do have a festool tape but wouldn't really use it for anything serious as it's too thin and flimsy for everyday work I do.

I usually use a Stanley 8m tape nothing special and if building anything really accurate I'd use my festool folding rule.

 

[gkaiseril]

Is the measure out of the accuracy for the flexible measuring tape/

The federal specifications for a retractable tape measure are +/- 1/32 inch for the first twelve feet, +/- 1/16 inch above that.

The federal spec for a long line steel tape (type you have to roll up) is +/- 0.100 inch/100 ft with a specific amount of tension applied depending on the length.

I should also note that the NBST mainly checks tapes to overall length and not each marking point unless specifically required by the certification request.

It looks like you are within those specs. And that is why the manufacturer's staff provided the quick reply. Unless the measurer is outside the required spec  I do not see the manufacturer changing anything.

The issue could come from applying a flexible coating onto a rigid material is causing some variation in the tension of the flexible material during application.

If I were that concerned about it, I would only use etched steel rules.

Some companies also make flat roll up measuring tapes for measuring sheet goods, no roll up edges to adjust for and no floating hook.

Starett does make measuring tapes in metric, imperial and combined metric/imperial scales.

 

[batcave]

I slammed by festool tape against a concrete wall. That thing flops worse than Lebron James. Can't believe festool put there name on it.

Kevin

 

[greg mann]

We do all of that here.  But there are other measuring devices in use that all must agree such as Woodpecker saddle squares, Starrett squares and calipers, BridgeCityTools rulers...  There has to be at least one tape measure that agrees with all of these tools and this tape measure ain't it.

We have such accuracy with imperial tools, but with the work flow moving primary to Festool we need the same accuracy in metric.  This tape measure does not even agree with the festool fences or routing template scales so it is of limited use.  Uh, make that of no use.

Sorry, but I think your expectations are unrealistic. Looking at the variations in your pics it appears your tape agrees with the steel rule within about .1mm at any given increment. What can you be using it for that would require better than that? If you are comparing it to a steel rule and need the accuracy of the steel rule then I suspect it would be best to just use the steel rule. If the measurement is beyond the length of the steel rule then the tape becomes your go to tool and you will have no choice but to use it as is.

 

[wrightwoodwork]

Here is a snippet of the accuracy of what a rule has to achieve according to ec class 2 or ec class 3

The plastic folding rules also come with plastic folding rule with hidden hinges. The glass fiber reinforced plastic is waterproof, the scales are deeply edged. The accuracy is according to EC-class III, = +-1 mm per 1 m and +-1.4 mm per 2 m.
Aluminium folding rule made by BMI
The Aluminium folding rule is the right choise if you are researching for a very accurate folding rule. The Aluminium folding rule’s accuracy is according to EC class II, which requires +-0.5 mm per 1 m; +-0.7 mm per 2 m; +-0.9 mm per 3 m; +-1.3 mm per 5 m.

 

[gotallie]

Greg Mann,
I do not think my expectations are unrealistic at all.  I now have two Festool tape measures made by BMI and one tape measure from BMI.  All three have exactly the same defects occurring at 415mm and 1024mm as well as other places.  These tape measures have been measured to be out more than 0.5mm in 300mm when testing along or through one of these defective areas.  BMI clearly has a manufacturing issue with the machine used to print these tapes.

If anyone has a Festool imperial/metric tape measure, take it out and look to see if it also has obvious defects in the scale.  It can’t be just mine as all three came from different sources at different times.

I found a cheap 5M tape measure in the back of a junk drawer the other day.  It appears to be made in Taiwan for a company called WorkForce.  It is spot on across its entire length with no visible defects.  So it is possible to manufacture a tape measure with tight specs.  It just doesn’t happen to be Festool/BMI.

 

[sicd_steve]

Wow....guys relax it just wood we are talking here, for a minute I thought was on an engineers blog!

Talk of O.1mm accuracy over 1m......damn my pencil line  is thicker than that by a factor of 10 mate!

Phew too much talk and not enough work.....one must be bored to prattle on how a $20 tape is a tad shy of a  pigmy' s hair follicle width over a mile!,,,,,,,

 

[greg mann]

Greg Mann,
I do not think my expectations are unrealistic at all.  I now have two Festool tape measures made by BMI and one tape measure from BMI.  All three have exactly the same defects occurring at 415mm and 1024mm as well as other places.  These tape measures have been measured to be out more than 0.5mm in 300mm when testing along or through one of these defective areas.  BMI clearly has a manufacturing issue with the machine used to print these tapes.

If anyone has a Festool imperial/metric tape measure, take it out and look to see if it also has obvious defects in the scale.  It can’t be just mine as all three came from different sources at different times.

I found a cheap 5M tape measure in the back of a junk drawer the other day.  It appears to be made in Taiwan for a company called WorkForce.  It is spot on across its entire length with no visible defects.   So it is possible to manufacture a tape measure with tight specs.  It just doesn’t happen to be Festool/BMI.

Someone will need to point out where in you pictures your scale is out by more than .5mmmbecause i cannot see it. However, in spite of that, you did not answer the questions I asked. If you have a steel rule long enough to do your measuring then why worry about the tape? Use the rule. If the tape is the only device long enough for a measurement then why worry about its relative lack of accuracy, albeit well within the specs referenced just above? Use the tape for all the measurements you can only do with a tape. At that point it becomes a story stick. Lastly, just how accurately can you mark with a tape as reference anyway
Expecting a bunch of different class measuring devices to be identical, and interchangeable in use, is unrealistic. Why have different devices if one has no advantage over another? Use the tool best suited to the job and quit worrying about the one you should probably not be using anyway. Put another way, why aren't you complaining about the inability of your one meter rule to accurately measure ten meter lengths? I can guarantee the tape will be more accurate than the rule at ANY length longer than the rule.

Steve, you are right, of course. It is only wood. Your observation about a pencil width is what prompted me to ask what kind of use demanded that accuracy from a tape in the first place. That wasn't answered either. I do admit to displaying frustration. In,y day job, I am deeply involved in an international p**sing contest over the measurement of a component we exported to India. After 18 months we were informed we had machined two bearing bore centerlines out of tolerance and the customer was preparing to send all material in inventory back, at our expense. We had data on a component made 2 hours after the part in question, traceable by serial number, and it was within.002mm of nominal. Tolerance was .020. Further investigation confirmed they had not set up their references correctly, but we still had to prove they were wrong. We finally got the part back and it was within .005mm. Still not satisfied, we turned it upside down for them and checked it again: .004mm. My point is: use the best tool and the proper refernces and best technique available and understand the limitations of any approach. Mitigate it where you can but accept that there are differences. Calipers are not as accurate as micrometers but they both usually have similar resolution. If i have a one inch micrometer it will measure most things under one inch far more accurately than calipers. OTOH, if the measurement is 5.2 inches the oneinch mikes won't work, so I will use what i have, knowing the results will be subject to more uncertainty regarding its accuracy. One meter rule vs. ten meter tape.

 

[NYC Tiny Shop]

OK, I assumed that my Festool tape measure was dead on...but, after checking it with my two metric Woodpeckers, it is off by .5mm-1mm at longer distances.  My Fastcap True 32 metric tape was dead-on with both Woodpeckers.  Sadly, I will have to tell my Festool tape that "it's me and not her."
Greg, you make a great point. Ultimately, there's a degree of error in every measuring tool. As long as my table saw isn't going to bite back, we all have to, in the end, rely on our eyes and feel.

 

[greg mann]

OK, I assumed that my Festool tape measure was dead on...but, after checking it with my two metric Woodpeckers, it is off by .5mm-1mm at longer distances.  My Fastcap True 32 metric tape was dead-on with both Woodpeckers.  Sadly, I will have to tell my Festool tape that "it's me and not her."
Greg, you make a great point. Ultimately, there's a degree of error in every measuring tool. As long as my table saw isn't going to bite back, we all have to, in the end, rely on our eyes and feel.

Understood, but how often do you use the tape when the Woodpeckers are long enough? That is really the point I am trying to make.

 

[NYC Tiny Shop]

Yes, Greg, I here you. Until I got an accurate system for duplicating cuts with my Kapex and table saw, it was fairly often that I had to lay-out ply sheets with the tape.  For me, I just want to be as accurate as possible. The Festool tape measure will always have a place, even if it's not as accurate as the Fastcap. I was using it today to quickly convert a design in metric to an imperial cut-list for a wood order.

 

[panelchat]

it is frustrating to not have super high quality tape measures out there for those of us who would pay extra for one.
fastcap and stanley make the best in my experience for accurate cabinet making.
but you still have to check them against a good reference to be sure.
best to only use one in the shop and lock the others in a drawer and leave them there...

 

[gotallie]

I think this will be my last word on this topic.  It appears I am may not be making myself clear.  But I have done a little research on this site and on others and found people who think about measuring tools as I do so I don’t feel so alone on this topic.

Greg, let’s for a moment use the micrometer as an analogy:  Imagine that your 1in micrometer was spot on for the first 25% of its range.  Then (pick a number) the next xx% of its range it was measurably and most importantly visibly not accurate.  Then imagine that this pattern repeats itself somewhat randomly throughout the rest of its range. 
Would you:

A. Mark the tool or attach a tag describing where this tool is accurate and inaccurate?
B. Merrily continue to use this tool, because just how accurate does it need to be?
C. Discontinue its use and reach for a tool known to be accurate?

Then imagine if Woodpeckers, Starrett, Bridge City Tools, or others made a measuring device that had squiggly lines, unevenly spaced lines, or other visible and measurable defects and then charged you 10 times the price of a competitor’s product (the $2.50 Taiwanese WorkForce tape) without such defects.  How would this product sell?  How does putting the name of that manufacturer on such a product reflect on their reputation for selling precision tools? 

I bought my three Festool/BMI tape measures in succession by mail order.  Had I actually seen the product beforehand I would most certainly would not have purchased them and we would not be having this discussion.  I continued to purchase each unit in turn because I refused to believe that Festool/BMI would put their name on such a poorly manufactured product.  Apparently I was wrong.  This morning begins the process of returning these products.

Panelchat,  you said it: “it is frustrating to not have super high quality tape measures out there for those of us who would pay extra for one.”

Exactly!

 

[grbmds]

I'm confused. If the first one was defective why not return it? I have seen a reluctance on this site to return tools which owners feel aren't working right. Festool has a great warranty and liberal return policy. Places like  Woodcraft also have liberal return policies. If something I buy doesn't work I just return it. If the second one doesn't work I look elsewhere after return (although I have not had that experience with festool and rarely with others).

 

[gotallie]

grbmds,

Its all about scheduling.  There is not enough time in the day.  I am in the process of returning all three tape measures today. 

Festool sent a replacement that was no better than the others (the defects were in exactly the same places).  So I am looking at other manufacturers.

 

[greg mann]

grbmds,

Its all about scheduling.  There is not enough time in the day.  I am in the process of returning all three tape measures today.  

Festool sent a replacement that was no better than the others (the defects were in exactly the same places).  So I am looking at other manufacturers.

I think this is a good idea. If your work process require or if you desire to use a tape within certain lengths you know to be inaccurate you should replace it. To your other point: Every measurement has a degree of uncertainty. We machine many features within .0005, some closer, and need to demonstrate R and R data. This stands for repeatability and reproduceability. The short description of the process is that three different operators should be able to measure a feature with the same gauge and get consistent results that fall within a certain percentage of the total tolerance. There are several esoteric fomulae involved but it basically boils down to the rule of thumb that a gauge should be accurate to 10% of your total tolerance, and any qualified operator should basically get the same reading as any other. So a gauge good enough to hold .0005 needs to be accurate to .00005. Now you are talking about temperature within a few degrees, surface finish, roundness, cylindricity, cleanliness, accuracy of your setting master, and on and on and on. To maintain your quality standard one needs to demonstrate usage of 'Gauge Analysis'. My armchair description of that is, "Does the type of gauge used reflect the best form for checking the feature in question. Example: a press fit bore gauge usage should probably mostly reveal the largest measurements that can be taken of feature size, because if the bore is too large one will lose the press fit characteristic. Conversely, if the bore will be used in a slip fit condition then one would want a gauge that is most likely to find the smallest feature of a bore, because if it doesn't you may have some part of that bore that will be too small and the mating part will freeze up. In the first instance a two point measuring system is better because the largest dimension of any bore will always be two points across from each other. You may need to take multiple readings to find the largest but in the process you will begin to get a picture of how much interference you should have in assembly. OTOH, the second case would benifit from a three point gauge with each 'point' actually being a linear element perhaps 3/4 of an inch in length. You now 'see' far more data about the hole. Roundness, taper, all those things that are more likely to give you a smaller reading; and it needs to be big enough that the mating part will slip in without hanging up. We actually sometimes use both gauges together. When the readings agree we know the geometric integrity of the bore is optimum. When they don't, we know something is degrading and the bore is no longer a true cylinder. This usually means it is time to change the cutting edge. If the readings are not the same it does not mean the gauges are inaccurate. It means they are telling different stories.

This is why I was kind of snarky about using the most accurate device when you can do so and only use the tape when nothing else would work. Your micrometer example is a good example. They are calibrated to check accuracy at multiple points, and with readings that will represent the thimble at various rotation points, not always with zero showing up. They need to be accurate at .250 and .7625, as an example. Having said that, you would be surprised how often micrometers are inadequate primarily because different operators can so easily bias the readings. This is even more true of calipers, then steel rules, then tapes.  [poke] [dead horse]  

 

[NYC Tiny Shop]

Here is a post that I made earlier today, but for some strange reason didn't post here...

Forgot that I had the Fastcap Pro Carpenter standard/metric tape. It too is spot on. Looks like the Festool tape will be put out to pasture. Too bad, because it has some great innovative features; the light weight and small size, the circle marker, and the top-side reading when butted up against a wall.
  I'd like to see Festool come out with a new tape that is more precise, has a better recoil, made of aluminum or hard rubber, and a more robust circle cutter stem... a product more representative of what Festool is capable of; like the Domino XL or the OF2200. I would be first in line.