DF 500 R versus Q

[onocoffee]

I've been curious about the differences between the R and the Q, so I brought the Q with me to my local dealer to see the differences. And while I'd like the new fence, I'd be okay with the spring adjustable lever locks on the R that would be "authentic" to Festool, instead of the McMaster-Carr versions, which doesn't have as svelte a design.

The idea was that, if they fit the Q, I would just buy the Clamp Lever 10866442, screw it in, and be done with it. But I wanted to make sure it fit correctly first.

Spoiler Alert: Total Fail.

I don't recall the threading on the Q Threaded Pin 465575 - I think it might be M5, but whatever it is the Clamp Lever is bigger (maybe M6) and does not readily fit the Q fence. Also, the design of the Clamp Lever makes it pretty much impossible to install (at least I wasn't able to figure it out). The difference in the design of the two fences is dramatic and, in this respect, incompatible.

Then there's the Base adjustment R Lever 465079. Again, a completely different assembly than the Q fence. In the R, there's a long Pull Rod 469040 that runs the width of the fence. Again, these parts are incompatible with the Q fence.

I also wanted to see the fit of the R fence on the Q Domino. It slides together easy peasy. On first glance, when you plunge the Domino to see the bit, it looks way off-center. But I think this is more due to where the lateral motion of the bit stopped. So I put the Q fence back on, and it was in a similar offset to center. From what I could tell, it seems like a plug and play swap. Not sure what issues Millard ran into but it looks to me that - maybe - you might need to adjust the clear center scale - maybe.

Thanks to my dealer for letting me tinker with their display model, but I think it would have gone a bit too far if I powered it up and started cutting with it to check the fence alignment. I do think that it will either be on the money or very close (within adjustable range), should someone be considering spending the $500 to replace their fence.

Note: just to clarify - the photos of the fence alignment are of the DF 500 Q on both the R fence and Q fence. The Q fence is the one with the Festool logo.

 

[NewWoodWorkerVA]

Thanks for the report! Which fence is img 3537? The reticle alignment looks way off. Do you think that is in adjustable range? If it is off that far, I wonder how reliable the pins are.

Seems crazy it would be centered with the bit in both cases.

Img 3639 looks good. Is that the new fence with the old domino or the new with new?

 

[onocoffee]

Thanks for the report! Which fence is img 3537? The reticle alignment looks way off. Do you think that is in adjustable range? If it is off that far, I wonder how reliable the pins are.

Seems crazy it would be centered with the bit in both cases.

Img 3639 looks good. Is that the new fence with the old domino or the new with new?

Actually, 3537 and 3569 are the same fence - the R fence on the 500Q. In the overhead view, it looks way off - but I think that's mainly because the bit didn't stop centered when I shut it down on my last use. The bit is angled to the left. This is why I also included 3542 and 3543 - those are the 500Q with original Q fence. The offset on that combination is also to the left - in about the same position in relation to center. It is because of this similarity between the two fences that I think that the swap might be a bit easier (and with less fuss) than what Millard experienced.

 

[Hipplewm]

If you read the comments of his video he has replied and HEAVILY implied that a simple calibration of the window is all that is needed - here is one in particular....

 

[onocoffee]

If you read the comments of his video he has replied and HEAVILY implied that a simple calibration of the window is all that is needed - here is one in particular....

View attachment 382268

After seeing the difference for myself, I would agree with this assessment. But, like Millard, the fence was not mine to adjust.

 

[mino]

Ok, this actually intrigued me and I ended up writing up an unplanned mini-compilation.
Please enjoy, nothing new below, just some logic applied.

TLDR:
- for calibration, it is *not* just about the reticle position but also all the flaps/pins used to place the fence to the stock.
- the *same* calibration concern comes if you try replacing your Q fence with a new one due to damage

---------------
Facts from just looking up eKat, but also confirmed in person:
A) the position of the bit shaft relative to the pillars is defined by the motor unit
B) the fences are interchangeable between the models on a parts assembly level

What we can infer from looking at the design (machined cast for pillars and their shafts versus an assembly):
C) manufacturing-wise, the centering of the bit shaft vis-à-vis the pillars is the most "imprecise" due to the multiple parts involved and *cannot* be assembled to the same precision due to compounding "errors" from multiple parts joined and will change with each disassembly/reassembly cycle.

Festool advice to What Peter Millard (this is the critical gem he deserves full credit for):
D) They advise to not swap the fences due to calibration.

B+C implies directly:
- any compound error in the assembly could be "calibrated out" only on the fence end
- every DOMINO sold is a "paired" unit where the fence is calibrated to match the specific motor unit at assembly
D confirms these implications /PM sadly did not think to ask if the same applies ref. multiple Q fences on a Q model ../

What this means for the fence "swappers":
Q and R fences are fully interchangeable as far as their "compatibility" goes.
Any fence other than the one you got with the motor unit needs (re)calibration.
Any servicing of the motor unit needs to include a fence (re)calibration.
Swapping a single fence between two motor units will not work unless you are lucky and the two units have the a close-enough shaft position.
Swapping multiple fences with the same motor unit is feasible - both need to be calibrated to it.
The only "safe" path is to get an R fence, then send your DOMINO with it (and your original Q fence) to Festool Service to have the set calibrated. I have no idea if Festool will accept this, but it is likely they would as a paid service.

The conclusion:
- do *not* mess with (just) the reticle position as it would misalign it vis-à-vis the side flaps/pins
- whatever jig Festool Service uses for this is not easily available, making this a bit of a tricky endeavour but definitely doable
- whatever misalignment a standalone fence exhibits vis-à-vis the motor unit, it is almost certainly calibratable-out. *)
- the *same* calibration concern comes if you need to replace your fence due to damage.
- do *not* take apart your motor unit unless you know what you are doing (!)
This last one is hard to emphasize enough. I cannot prove this, but can easily imagine Festool service using a simple jig to "place" the motor unit components to be aligned during assembly and thus stay within the "calibratable" scope of the fences.

*) unless Festool does finished parts-matching in factory, like some Chinese makers do. A very, very unlikely scenario as it makes servicing a nightmare and would necessitate multiple "version" of the fence a as spare.

 

[mino]

To add to above:
Someone should do this and model a 3d printed alignment jig that will make the calibration a breeze.

What is needed is IMNSHO a part that will slide into a created mortice and "capture" the fence (e.g. by external side faces) while all the flaps as well as the reticle are let loose to be tightened in their appropriate position for that motor unit.

@FestoolUSA
I know this is a lot to ask, but this is a prime case of something that FT should publish on Printables as an added value for customers. Along with other such calibration jigs you already use for other tools like the TS saws. 3D printing makes this absolutely practical and would be a great added value .. reinforcing the Festool addiction capture effect discussed lately.

 

[ChuckS]

The only "safe" path is to get an R fence, then send your DOMINO with it (and your original Q fence) to Festool Service to have the set calibrated. I have no idea if Festool will accept this, but it is likely they would as a paid service.

Veritas/Lee Valley Tools did something like that, offering a plow plane skate modification for a limited time for a small fee.

Festool introducing a similar client-friendly program for those who want to switch to the new fence? From very unlikely to never-gonna-happen is my guess.

 

[onocoffee]

When the R was first announced, I was one of those who thought swapping the fence might be a good route - especially when we thought the new fence might be priced at $350. But at $500, plus whatever Festool would charge for calibration (or just the effort of calibration at home), is it really "value" when compared to spending the money on a new replacement R? Seems to me now that it would be better for the interested, to sell their Q, recoup the $900 and put that towards a new R. New tool, new warranty.

In my specific case, it would be more of a fun luxury to switch because of my use. The vertical fence adjustment is much smoother on the new fence and, theoretically, the additional pins could be helpful. But I don't know the difference. It's cheaper to remain in darkness about their usefulness!

 

[ChuckS]

I'm with you that the new fence offers the better pins but not a deal breaker to spend $500 on just that. Other so-called "upgrades" are not worth anything to me as I'm perfectly happy with my DF500 as is (I am an intensive user, comparable to any users who use it for a living).

However, woodworkers are known to like and chase after new toys or features. I hope those who choose to go down that path will find the conversion process straight-forward at a minimal cost (it won't be cheap if you have to ship in the machine and the new fence to Festool and pay for calibration if that is necessary).