Do jigs and Qwas substitute for complete MFT?

NEW2FES

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Joined
Feb 22, 2012
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Ok buying TS55 and was doing combo with complete MFT/3. After reading here for hours besides the top itself which with all the holes is fairly cheap just to buy is the bridge and angle offer anything that can't be done with jigs and qwas???

I am thinking buy or make the top, mount in bench and use the QWAS for the rest? It appears that they replace just about everything the other components do? The front and side rails are easily obtained in a close profile.

I guess the question is do you feel you need the bridge and angle guide or or they more trouble then they are worth? I can even add a t slot and add an old Osbourne miter gauge?

Thanks Monday is coming and I want to place order.

 
I would say that repetitive cuts and reptitive  routing would be a little faster using the MFT set up. But will only make a big time difference if you are doing a lot of multiples. 

If you were deciding between the MFT Basic and the Full MFT, I would say get the full.  But if you are going to make your own the price difference is a lot and I would say  build your own.  You can drill the top yourself, but since you will be counting on exact and precise holes and hole placement , you might be better off buying the top. The LR32 can be used to get  a very precise top drilled , but then you have to buy the LR32 sooo.....

Seth
 
It should work. I remember there was someone that got a replacement top and mounted it on brackets so it could snap onto the dewalt mitersawstand. A while ago I wanted to share the picture on another forum and couldn't locate it anymore, I can't remember if I saw it here or on the qwas website, but I saw it around the time the raildogs were introduced.
 
Frank-Jan said:
It should work. I remember there was someone that got a replacement top and mounted it on brackets so it could snap onto the dewalt mitersawstand. A while ago I wanted to share the picture on another forum and couldn't locate it anymore, I can't remember if I saw it here or on the qwas website, but I saw it around the time the raildogs were introduced.

that was me. search for cheap mft  and my name.

i have never used a proper mft  so i cant say if it is better than my version but it was a lot cheaper. i might get a proper mft but not for th efence etc. id only use it for clamping etc and use qwas dogs for the cutting )
 
I was just going to say, try Alan M he has one.  [big grin] There is another one that I think Frank-Jan is referring to. It is from Gil LaCroix who kept bugging me for the first Rail Dogs. After I sent him a pair, he sent me some pictures to show why he needed them. Here they are with the last picture showing how he configured the bottom of the MFT top:

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That seams the way for me. I would rather use the saved money for something that actually helps with cuts. I am not big on how stuff looks but more how it performs. That of course depends on cost.

Thanks I appreciate the help. I am checking with someone local in S Cal to have the holes cnc'c or??? in a larger top if not I am just going to buy a top or two. I would do myself but they accuracy of the cnc kind of is the whole reason for the quick set up using the holes? Did that make sense?

One last question...Is there any issues with using the larger Qwas for aligning the rail for cuts? With being supported in the center does it create and bevel effect as it could possibly not lay flat and square to the piece being cut. The bridge otherwise would locate the rail keeping it parallel to the work surface.

Thanks
 
You won't be alone, there are several people that have bought just the top and made their own bench from there. Personally, I like having the aluminum extrusions going around the top but you can use some from 80/20 Inc. and save some money. Of course these can always be added later.

I started a thread on another forum posing the question of how to go about building your own MFT style top. There were 2 or 3 outstanding answers but I still like the idea of a CNC top if you can find one close by otherwise the shipping expense and issues come into play.

For your last question, once the workpiece is under the rail, the rail is very solid and no problem with the cut being off square (no bevel). You may need some scrap pieces of the same thickness to stick under the far ends of the rail to keep it from tipping.
 
THANKS!

One last question, is size the only difference for the older 1080? tops? They are only $105 compared tp 4145 for the newer version? Same spacing and hole diam 20mm?

Thanks
 
NEW2FES said:
THANKS!

One last question, is size the only difference for the older 1080? tops? They are only $105 compared tp 4145 for the newer version? Same spacing and hole diam 20mm?

Thanks

Yep, same size hole and spacing.
 
I'm selling my mft.  I just made an ultimate workbench (Ron paulk). Couldn't be happier.  I use an Incra positioner (rips) and a stop for crosscuts.  I use the qwas rail dogs to keep the rail in place. I added two elongated holes at each end so I can use the rail dogs without retightrning. There is no side play and the rail is very easy to pull off or put in position.  Everything stays square or parallel. The nice part of the large work surface is that I can do an entire project without having to reposition any hardware.... And is dead flat. It is also light. You can hange the workbench from a wall to put it away at the end of the day.  The mft is very flexible, but I found that I always needed a larger work surface. Your needs may be different.

Jga
 
NEW2FES said:
That seams the way for me. I would rather use the saved money for something that actually helps with cuts. I am not big on how stuff looks but more how it performs. That of course depends on cost.

Thanks I appreciate the help. I am checking with someone local in S Cal to have the holes cnc'c or??? in a larger top if not I am just going to buy a top or two. I would do myself but they accuracy of the cnc kind of is the whole reason for the quick set up using the holes? Did that make sense?

One last question...Is there any issues with using the larger Qwas for aligning the rail for cuts? With being supported in the center does it create and bevel effect as it could possibly not lay flat and square to the piece being cut. The bridge otherwise would locate the rail keeping it parallel to the work surface.

Thanks
where are you located?  I had mine done at Hacienda Plywood for $40 
 
I am near Poway so a bit of a ride but at that price? How big of a sheet did they do? How many holes?

I will also call them later, Thanks for the tip.
 
I was toying with getting (or making a substitute for) the top, and getting the hardware kit (rail and such), then using off-the-shelf T-track around the edges. of a "custom" base for it.

Does anyone know if the rail connectors from the MFT will fit into regular T-Track?  The clamps from the guide rail accessory kit do.

At any rate, I'm leaning more toward just buying an MFT first instead.  Might still take that approach later to build something for larger pieces and such, so still entertaining the idea of using T-Track...

I'm thinking that down the road, after getting one of the Festool routers and an LR32 setup, I could use the LR32 system to space and drill the 20mm holes for my own top, thus making something larger than the MFT... but I don't think I can wait that long to have one to use in the meantime.  :'(
 
My opinion will be different than others here.  I personally won't want to use dogs and jigs if I had the opportunity to have a full blown MFT/3 with the protractor head and fence, etc. UNLESS I was making a limited number of items that always had an exact angle need.

Let me explain.  There is a video somewhere on YouTube that shows a Festool user making a series of things.  The angles to them are strange if I remember correctly.  He uses jigs and wedges to ensure that every one has the exact same angles.  He doesn't need the ability to deviate from those angles.  If he would design something different to be made in multiples over time he would make new jigs and wedges.

Please don't get me wrong, I love my Qwas Dogs and Qwas Rail Dogs, but I am not going to make a positioning wedge to cut an odd angle or make a jig if I have the convenience of the protractor head and fence for the majority of my work.

Peter
 
Haha, that's exactly what I'm cutting tonight... a series of wedges for 8 different compound cuts on this project.

My question to MFT/3 users is what is the accuracy of the angle setting unit?  Assuming you set it dead-on 90º to start, can you accurately position it to 0.767º off 90º? 14.734º, 8.142º, 3.828º, -7.068º and a few more.  Granted, I don't expect to get thousandths degree accuracy.  The benefit of the wedges, though, is if you are making boxes with either end of a board mitered to the same (but negated) degree, you can flip the wedge and cut again.

On the MFT/3, you could do that in a different way... you could align the fence with Qwas dogs to the table.  To flip the miter angle, you would use dogs on the offcut side of the fence along with some big parallels to get the cut in place re-using the same miter gauge setting without repositioning it.  The repeatability of the exact same angle is more important than the degree to thousandths.

If that made no sense, I blame the food coma from lunch.  [embarassed]
 
I have to admit that for what I do I don't normally have to go to three decimal placements for my angles.  If you are going that route and to that accuracy, my guess is that you have something made by Bridge City assisting you  [poke]. 

Coma or not, your ideas are always welcome here! [big grin] [thumbs up]

Peter

 
I posted a while back about using a 10" sine bar for very precise or repeatable angles. If any body needs a refresher on it let me know. I don't use my miter head anymore, and have several if someone is interested in one.
 
I'd like to hear about the sine bars.  I presume it lets you set an accurate angle from a linear measurement.  If that's the case, I'd also like to know the conversion used.  I calculated my necessary angles to 3 decimal places; I wanted the calculations to exceed the precision range of whatever I use to set the angles.
 
NEW2FES said:
I am near Poway so a bit of a ride but at that price? How big of a sheet did they do? How many holes?

I will also call them later, Thanks for the tip.
it was a 4x8 sheet...paid another $45 for the 1/2" u/v baltic birch...
 
PaulMarcel said:
I'd like to hear about the sine bars.  I presume it lets you set an accurate angle from a linear measurement.  If that's the case, I'd also like to know the conversion used.  I calculated my necessary angles to 3 decimal places; I wanted the calculations to exceed the precision range of whatever I use to set the angles.

Sine bars are used by machinists for very accurate angles. They are commonly found in 3", 5" and 10" lengths. They also require "Jo Blocks", also known as Gauge Blocks.

[attachimg=1]

You can use any trigonometry table for the sine of angles. You would look up the sine for the angle you want and then multiply it by the length of your sine bar (the length is the distance between the centers of the 2 "wheels"). This will tell you the height of the required Jo blocks to jack up one wheel to get that angle.

[attachimg=2]

This system is extremely accurate, depending on the setup (it's usually done with a surface plate to reduce any minor errors with a bench or machine's surface). Normally angles aren't measured with decimals but by minutes and seconds. Just like you would expect, 60 minutes in 1 degree and 60 seconds in 1 minute.

Jo blocks can have height changes of .0001 (1 tenth thousandths) of an inch with an accuracy of 5-50 millionths of an inch.
 
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