Do you substitute domino's for mortise and tenon??

[adubeau]

I have been looking at a few plans that call for a lot of mortise and tenons as part of the plan..

Do many of you who have the domino --- use it in stead of creating a mortise and tenon... of so... what is the ratio  you use?  and what issues have you come across doing so?

 

[Jesse Cloud]

A domino is basically a mortise and tenon.  I follow the standard rule of thumb that the thickness of the tenon should be about 1/3 the thickness of the workpiece.  With standard M&T, my tenons would be somewhat longer than dominoes, so to compensate, I use twin dominoes when space allows.

I use dominoes in applications ranging from thin frames to dining chairs.

 

[GaryLaroff]

The domino joints ARE floating mortise and tenon joints, not a substitute for mortise and tenon joints.  As Jesse stated, size the mortise and the tenon by the usual rules except that dominos fit so perfectly that the tenons can be shorter.

I am working on a large mahogany cabinet that will be assembled from separate top and bottom sections but I cut all the parts for the carcase at one time to ensure the sections would be of the same dimensions and fit together.  As with hand-cut mortise and tenon joinery, the hardwood was dimensioned and then all the joinery cut with the domino.  See Photo No. 1.  Usually you will want to mark your face sides and align the domino with that.  In my case the rails are set back from the stiles so the joinery was measured from the back.

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There were a number of required dados for the captured side panels and the rear boards.  These were cut after the domino mortises and some chamfering and other work done around the panel areas, in the same order you would otherwise do it.  See Photo No. 2.

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Photo No. 3 shows the initial glue-up of the bottom section with the prefinished panels installed.  With the exception of a bunch of hand-cut dovetails, all the joinery was done with the domino because using the domino is about as much fun as you can have alone in your workshop with a powertool.

Gary

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[mouppe]

I have been looking at a few plans that call for a lot of mortise and tenons as part of the plan..

Do many of you who have the domino --- use it in stead of creating a mortise and tenon... of so... what is the ratio  you use?  and what issues have you come across doing so?

I haven't cut a mortise and tenon since I bought my Domino. I use the 1/3 ratio.

The only issue that has arisen is when I have had to cut the dominoes lengthwise to be able to use them in thin stock. For example, if I am using a 5x30mm tenon in a mitred picture frame, and I only have 30mm of wood, I would mortise 12mm holes in each piece and then trim the domino by 6mm. (I know that I could have used a 4x10mm domino but I wanted a thicker domino in this situation for strength.)

 

[Kevin Stricker]

I think it depends on what you are building.  I wouldn't build a mandoor with only dominos for joinery.  One nice feature of the domino is the ability to cut oversized mortices so you can make your own oversized floating tenons to add significant strength.  You are still limited by the depth, which is just a tad over 1" deep mortices.  Not really suitable for doors or trestle tables or workbenches but acceptable for many other projects.

 

[fatroman]

I think it depends on what you are building.  I wouldn't build a mandoor with only dominos for joinery. 

I've been curious about this. A few searches around here leads me to believe you could use the domino for passage door joinery. And I've been curious to try it out myself.

This was one of the few resources I was able to find elsewhere that suggested that you could indeed build the doors that way. (You need to scroll down to see the ones made with dominoes.)

http://superwoodworks.com/Projects/PanelDoors.htm

 

[fatroman]

You can build anything using dominos. That does not mean it will not come apart sometime in the future. There is a lot of weight being supported by those short dominos.
I would not use them on something that large.

I sent that guy an email to see how well those have held up so far and if he'd build them again that way.

I'm not averse to the weight argument, but I don't want to fall into the 'we've never tried it, so it can't possibly work' realm either.

 

[fshanno]

As far as a passage door goes doesn't logic dictate that the joints between the rails and the styles would simply need to be stronger than the screws in the hinges?

If you make a face frame kitchen cabinet and use compact hinges doesn't that mean that the joints on the cabinet doors only need to be stronger than the two screws in the face frame?  Even a stub tenon is stronger than that. 

It's like the two guys in grizzly country.  One says to the other, "What if a bear chases us?  Could we outrun him?"  The second replies, "I don't need to outrun the bear.  I just need to outrun you!"

 

[fatroman]

As far as a passage door goes doesn't logic dictate that the joints between the rails and the styles would simply need to be stronger than the screws in the hinges?

That's part of my thought behind the interest in Dominoes for a door project.

I did hear back from the guy in the link above. Said his doors, including one to the master bath which has plenty of opportunities for joinery movement, have held up just fine, and he wouldn't hesitate to use the same method again.

 

[fritter63]

As far as a passage door goes doesn't logic dictate that the joints between the rails and the styles would simply need to be stronger than the screws in the hinges?

If you're worried about the strength, then just put in more than one. On a door, you have lots of room, and could easily do a quad M&T. The sum would
equal that of a larger joint. It's all about glued surface area, right?

 

[Sam Murdoch]

I have been building cabinet doors and panels and recently some 1-1/4" thick storm/screen doors using dominos as tenons that supplement the short tenon (typically 1/4" square on cab doors, 3/8" on the storms) that I run on the ends of my rails. I do my domino plunges before running the solid dadoes & tenons in the rails and stiles. Number and size of dominos vary, of course. I use the exterior grade for the storms. Lots of gluing surface this way and the dominos align every face perfectly for a pretty sweet assembly. I can't see why this would be a compromise on larger doors, but I'll defer to others for that assessment.

 

[Kevin Stricker]

Interesting argument, but I am curious if any of you have actually built or seen a man/passage door before assembly?  You are forgetting basic physics when comparing screws in the hinge to tenons in the door.  A 3'0 door has an almost 3 foot lever arm acting on the bottom tenon with a mass of close to 100 pounds.  Although the other 2+ rails help hold some of this weight the bottom rail gets the brunt of the load and must not only support the weight of the door but also prevent racking and handle thousands of open/close cycles in its lifetime  Even twenty 10mm dominos would not compare in strength to a couple 1/2"x3"x4" tenons.

The screw holding a door in it's hinge are only keeping the hinge in it's mortice, the hinge is doing the supporting work.  Shall we compare the strength of a domino to a 3.5" brass hinge loaded in shear next?

 

[fritter63]

Ok, then get the XL 700 domino, thats it's purpose .

 

[Timtool]

i use dominos instead of tenons when they are of the same size or a bit smaller than the real tenon would have been.
for something that needs structural strength i avoid using dominos that are smaller.
on the example of that door, imagine if he would have used regular tenon and mortise joints, but made his tenons only 30mm deep like the domino, where on a door that size you would need at very least 70mm. people would say he's crazy, even though that ridiculous stub of a tenon would still offer 20 times more glue contact area than the dominos.
i'm not even sure that making that crazy number of domino slots, close to 100/door have saved him any time over classic MT joints. it's simple and doesn't require any skill, but in no way is it as strong and durable as a classic MT joint in this case.

 

[fritter63]

Depends on what you have to make your M&T

The only way they'd be near as fast as a domino is with the Leigh FMT, and even then it takes a bit of time, esp. In the setup (yes, I have one)

Any other way and you're spending all your time fine  tuning the fit (or you end up with a sloppy glue joint that defeats the purpose)

 

[adubeau]

Depends on what you have to make your M&T

The only way they'd be near as fast as a domino is with the Leigh FMT, and even then it takes a bit of time, esp. In the setup (yes, I have one)

Any other way and you're spending all your time fine   tuning the fit (or you end up with a sloppy glue joint that defeats the purpose)

Just a router and table saw..... Nothing more nothing less.....

I have done mortise with a router and prefer this over most other methods till I got the Domino..  And I am not building anything that would be rewquired to support a massive amount of weight....

 

[Sam Murdoch]

Depends on what you have to make your M&T

The only way they'd be near as fast as a domino is with the Leigh FMT, and even then it takes a bit of time, esp. In the setup (yes, I have one)

Any other way and you're spending all your time fine   tuning the fit (or you end up with a sloppy glue joint that defeats the purpose)

Just a router and table saw..... Nothing more nothing less.....

I have done mortise with a router and prefer this over most other methods till I got the Domino..  And I am not building anything that would be rewquired to support a massive amount of weight....

I don't even use the router any more, just the table saw with a tenon jig, after I've used the domino. No issues to achieve good results as described in my post above.

 

[ScotF]

The Domino works great and as others have said, it is a loose tenon joint.  It works very well for all but the heaviest pieces of furniture or big door construction.  I have used mine to make all kinds of furniture and projects from bookcases and desks to picture frames...it is revolutionary. 

Scot