Does anyone review based on longevity

[Stone Message]

I was talking to another woodworker about a jointer/planer and talking about reviews I have read. He stated that all reviews touch on a few items but never address the longevity of a tool, the quality of engineering, and if parts will be available X number of years down the road.

Has anyone ever seen a magazine review that did address these questions?

There has been a few threads talking about tool shoot outs and now I completely question even reading tool reviews.

I am in the market for a combo jointer/planer and it seems the best advice is just talking to someone who actually owns the tool and has had the tool for a period of time.

done venting... just seems like the hours of online research and buying old pdf magazines to read tool reviews was a total waste of time and money.

Hi Shawn

I am not sure if you are in the market for a $800 machine or an $8,000 machine. If it is the former...

I have just sold a brilliant planer/jointer which I bought in 1992. It was made by Elektra Beckum which is now subsumed into Metabo. It was the HC260 machine. The design is so popular that you will find it with many other names on the badge. I sold mine to upgrade to a machine at 3 times the cost which is not 3 times the quality of that dear little machine. The difference is that my new machine will take the knocks of a busy workshop and can work for 8-12 hours a day.

Peter

 

[ShawnRussell]

Peter,

I do not have a budget.  [eek]

I am sure I will be in the 3k and upwards neighborhood. What I want is a tool that I know will last for 2-3 generations. I am/was leaning towards MiniMax and Felder. I am not sold on a combo machine. I have room to roll two machines around. Production quality and machine build quality are most important to me. If I have to save for another year to afford the machine that will best fill that requirement then I am content to wait.

I currently have a bench top planer and an 8" Delta. I want a minimum of 12" and if I could find a 15" that would be excellent.

Cheers

 

[tjbnwi]

This is all very interesting. I own both the newer Domino 500 and the Domino 700 XL, and use both quite often.  I don't know anything about focus groups, etc. (And, I don't think that I would ever have wet glue anywhere near my domino pins.  [huh] )
All I can do is speak from my own experience. IMO, the pins, pin design, and general quality/build of the XL is superior to the 500. 
I'm not saying that because of this, Festool is going downhill. I just disagree with their choice, in this instance.

I know of 6 fences that had to be replaced due to glue on the pins. As I said nearly ruined one myself.  I prefer the pins, so would have been more upset with myself if I had to go to paddles.

I've used to 700 but don't own one, did not notice any difference in quality. Ergonomics yes, quality no. Easy to build on what you learned from a previous model, harder to innovate.

I know someone who epoxied locked the depth adjustment mechanism on the 700 due to epoxy on his fingers. He never had it happen with the 500, he felt that part of the 700 was inferior to the 500.

Tom

 

[peter halle]

I'll echo what some of the others have said.  Festool does listen to endusers and evaluates comments and tool usages.  Based on all that they do make changes.  The pins on the original Domino were not used as much to reference into previously cut mortises, so they introduced the paddles.  Another example;  the now discontinued CT-22 and CT-33 had a place to hook up a hose to exhaust the exhaust away from the place of work or outside.  It could also be used to hook into another CT.  Great feature, but one that most people never used.  The new model CT's don't have that feature now.  As Tom said, it is easier to modify than to invent.  I was told years ago that the tool development process at Festool is usually between 5 and 7 years.

Peter

 

[NYC Tiny Shop]

Tom,
I don't get it? Why would you have wet glue anywhere near a Domino tool?  I make my mortises, do a dry fit, and then put the tool away before the glue even comes out.  I'm just confused how you can get glue on the pins? Please explain. And, if you don't see a difference in quality of how the new 500 and 700 are built, then I don't think that you've spent enough time with the 700. Thanks. 

 

[tjbnwi]

Tom,
I don't get it? Why would you have wet glue anywhere near a Domino tool?  I make my mortises, do a dry fit, and then put the tool away before the glue even comes out.  I'm just confused how you can get glue on the pins? Please explain. And, if you don't see a difference in quality of how the new 500 and 700 are built, then I don't think that you've spent enough time with the 700. Thanks. 

I may have 30 pieces I ned to make up, don't have time to put it away and take it back out. I have missed a few mortises, out of the 10's of thousands that I have cut. Had to go to the mid setting to make things align. I think I dry fitted the first piece I made, haven't since then. I trust the tool, once in a while I'll screw up. The 700 that got epoxied, you have to know the guy to understand. Looking at his spray equipment it is a like looking back in time to the first color/finish he ever sprayed. 

I think I posted the DVD shelving unit that had 180 5 mm dominos in it. I was teaching someone how to use the Domino, he laid it out, cut the mortices, asked me if he should test fit everything. I asked him if he laid it out properly, set and used the tool properly, his response was "yes". Told him no need to test fit, glue it up and assemble it, except for the few mortices he forgot to cut out of the 360, it went together really well. I did make sure he wiped the glue off the pins.

I think your confusing quality with ergonomics and power. There is a different feel and sound. There isn't a single piece on my 500 that does not fit perfectly, all the parts work and interface as they should. I will lay you odds, that except for the paddle change the 500 is built as it was when I got mine. I do not have anywhere near the time on the 700 as I do on the 500, only 1000-1200 mortices. I did find the design more user friendly, quality was no different, everything fit and worked together well. Some day I may even buy one.

Tom

 

[ccmviking]

A very good and reliable 12" unit that can be found used for about 4 grand is the Felder AD731.  It's built a lot heavier than most of the 5 series Felder jointers/planers which would typically been the 12" model. 

http://lamachineabois.free.fr/det_rd.php?id=7

Chris...

I was talking to another woodworker about a jointer/planer and talking about reviews I have read. He stated that all reviews touch on a few items but never address the longevity of a tool, the quality of engineering, and if parts will be available X number of years down the road.

Has anyone ever seen a magazine review that did address these questions?

There has been a few threads talking about tool shoot outs and now I completely question even reading tool reviews.

I am in the market for a combo jointer/planer and it seems the best advice is just talking to someone who actually owns the tool and has had the tool for a period of time.

done venting... just seems like the hours of online research and buying old pdf magazines to read tool reviews was a total waste of time and money.

 

[Chems]

The pins on the original Domino were not used as much to reference into previously cut mortises, so they introduced the paddles. 

I'm about 95% sure that the reason Festool changed the pins for the (in my opinion) inferior fold down tab system was that they were sued by I think Lamello for stealing the pins idea. I've got the pins on my machine, much better than the paddles I've seen on the new version. Happy to stand corrected but I seem to remember it was a big deal about 3-4 years ago.

 

[jimbo51]

NYC mentioned "Powermatic Tools are very appealing - both because of the quality and the company's longevity."

How much of Powermatic is left from the company of 20 years ago versus just a trademark being bought and sold? An extreme example would be someone saying they want to buy a Polaroid digital camera because of the company's history of innovation. However, Polaroid is simply a name used by some conglomerate now. There is nothing left of the company founded by Dr. Land decades ago.

I think that reviews of longevity would be hard to account for different usage rates, operator skill (epoxy?) and just luck of the draw. I had the controller board of my C12 drill die after 4-5 years. Most people probably have not had that issue which cost me about $100.

 

[NYC Tiny Shop]

Yes, Chems. That's probably more like it.

"I think your confusing quality with ergonomics and power."\

No, Tom. I'm not. The 500 has plastic caps falling off, all the time. Lost one...should have glued them in. It was completely out of calibration, when I first bought it.  Thanks to Paul Marcel, it's now calibrated. (It's still a good tool. I use it all the time and like it. Would recommend it.) The 700 was dead on from day one. It vibrates less and has a smoother, quieter motor.

 

[greg mann]

This is all very interesting. I own both the newer Domino 500 and the Domino 700 XL, and use both quite often.  I don't know anything about focus groups, etc. (And, I don't think that I would ever have wet glue anywhere near my domino pins.  [huh] )
All I can do is speak from my own experience. IMO, the pins, pin design, and general quality/build of the XL is superior to the 500. 
I'm not saying that because of this, Festool is going downhill. I just disagree with their choice, in this instance.

Elsewhere you questioned Festool's commitment to quality. Yet you love the overall superiority of the XL compared to the 500. Since the XL succeeded the 500 it seems like a poor argument. [poke]

 

[mouppe]

Tom,
I don't get it? Why would you have wet glue anywhere near a Domino tool?  I make my mortises, do a dry fit, and then put the tool away before the glue even comes out.  I'm just confused how you can get glue on the pins? Please explain. And, if you don't see a difference in quality of how the new 500 and 700 are built, then I don't think that you've spent enough time with the 700. Thanks.

In festool's original marketing for the new fence, glue residue is mentioned as one of the factors behind the paddles' introduction so more than one user must have experienced the problem with glue on the pins.

Personally I find the paddles an annoyance so I have them permanently retracted.

 

[Stone Message]

The DF700 is probably the best piece of Festool design and engineering (OF2200 is close). The pins are brilliant. The paddles on the DF500 are rubbish and I keep mine out of the way all of the time.

Peter