domino 500 connectors sufficient for table stretcher knockdown joints?

[reck]

Hi Guys,

I wondered of I could i could pick your brains on this. I am building a table that needs to be transported and therefore packed down as flat as possible. below is the rough design.

for construction I will make two sub assemblys consisting of two stretchers glued into their corrosponding mortises. I now need a solution where the three rails connecting and supporting the top can be connected and detached for transport purposes.

The rails between the legs are 25mm thick and the stretchers will be from 25 to 30mm thick. my idea as I have a domino 500 would be to purchase and use the knockdown connectors. I have no experience with these fastners would two rails up top and one on the bottom all conencted via 500 connectors below be provide sufficient strengh and keep everything rigid?

in terms of the big access holes. I can atleast disguise the  top ones on the inside faces of the curved strechers where they wont be seen.

many thanks for any advice you have.

 

[Packard]

If you put in a third (entirely hidden) stretcher between the two that you have drawn.  Then you can use the connectors on the middle one as a clamp and glue on site for the original stretchers.

Or more simply, the center one with the connectors will act as a clamp for the two stretchers you have drawn.

The extra stretcher will be hidden, and probably would not seem out of place anyway.  The real question is, “Will the person making the final assembly be up to the task of gluing the remaining joints?”

It sounds like a silly question, but I had to disassemble drawers from a kitchen where the installers assembled the dovetail joints with hot glue (which failed).  It created an unnecessarily large amount of work to fix.

I could imagine an installer thinking, “These connectors are strong enough.”  (They might be.  But I know the mortise and tenons are more than strong enough when glued.)

 

[jonnyrocket]

I used the df500 connectors on some bed rails for a toddler bed that my daughter sleeps in. Each of the side rails has 1 domino and 1 connector. From that experience, I can say that the connectors alone wouldn’t be enough for what you are building.
Festool recommends the use of 2 dominos and 1 connector at each joint to provide the rigidity needed. And after building the bed with just 1 domino and 1 connector at each joint, I see why they recommend 2 dominos.

 

[mcooley]

I have used the 500 knockdown connectors and the main reason why I am uncomfortable using them for shipping to a client is the fact the posts sit proud of the surface before they are engaged etc. It is a real inconvenience like the risk of it bending or trying to explain to a client how best to turn them into place. They are simple enough to use but not exactly the most intuitive. I think these connectors were over engineered.

I would also assume the connectors bite better in plywood or similar as opposed to hardwood. I have only used them in casework.

Something like the Peanut 2 or similar seem would suffice for many designs.
https://www.intelligentfixings.com/peanut-2

 

[luvmytoolz]

I used the df500 connectors on some bed rails for a toddler bed that my daughter sleeps in. Each of the side rails has 1 domino and 1 connector. From that experience, I can say that the connectors alone wouldn’t be enough for what you are building.
Festool recommends the use of 2 dominos and 1 connector at each joint to provide the rigidity needed. And after building the bed with just 1 domino and 1 connector at each joint, I see why they recommend 2 dominos.

How are the inserts affected, do they start working their way loose?

 

[jonnyrocket]

How are the inserts affected, do they start working their way loose?

Yes. I need to retighten the connectors about 1x per year.

 

[squall_line]

I have used the 500 knockdown connectors and the main reason why I am uncomfortable using them for shipping to a client is the fact the posts sit proud of the surface before they are engaged etc. It is a real inconvenience like the risk of it bending or trying to explain to a client how best to turn them into place. They are simple enough to use but not exactly the most intuitive.

This is one of the reasons I used when I was trying to come up with an excuse to buy a Zeta P2.  As you mentioned, the Peanut-2 or other designs that allow the flat pieces to remain flat during packing may be better.

That said, there is plenty of knockdown furniture that requires the user to "insert this thing into this place before final assembly" that's nowhere near intuitive and it still gets assembled correctly.

But if I'm making something for a client or family member, I'm probably also trying to keep them from feeling the same assembly frustration as a lot of the knockdown furniture that's currently out there.

 

[luvmytoolz]

I have used the 500 knockdown connectors and the main reason why I am uncomfortable using them for shipping to a client is the fact the posts sit proud of the surface before they are engaged etc. It is a real inconvenience like the risk of it bending or trying to explain to a client how best to turn them into place. They are simple enough to use but not exactly the most intuitive.

This is one of the reasons I used when I was trying to come up with an excuse to buy a Zeta P2.  As you mentioned, the Peanut-2 or other designs that allow the flat pieces to remain flat during packing may be better.

That said, there is plenty of knockdown furniture that requires the user to "insert this thing into this place before final assembly" that's nowhere near intuitive and it still gets assembled correctly.

But if I'm making something for a client or family member, I'm probably also trying to keep them from feeling the same assembly frustration as a lot of the knockdown furniture that's currently out there.

I have a knockoff ver of the Zeta and must say I love the Tenso and Clamax connectors, incredible time saver and buying them from Ebay are really cheap. I don't think strength wise they compare in any way to the Festool connectors so I'd never use them for anything but alignment support in any load bearing project, but the smaller size makes them more useful for more applications I reckon.

For a general cupboard or bookshelf Where the load bearing members are physically supported in some way, they would make self assembly very easy for end customers. Certainly far easier than putting Ikea cupboards together, and the customer wouldn't need to own a hammer!

 

[Birdhunter]

I’ve built a few knockdown furniture pieces including a king bed. I used the 700 connectors plus the wood tenons. Never needed to tighten the connectors. The 700 connectors are extremely solid. I have the 500 connector set, but never had an application.

 

[bwehman]

Very unrelated perhaps, but just wanted to state how great that connector system is. I've used both the 500 and 700 and really impressed.

I'll echo what some other posters said through, you need to use them in tandem with regular dominos too.

 

[reck]

Thanks guys for the feedback. So I am right to assume the 500 connectors are not fit for this purpose. I would have enough room in the two top rails to add two dominos and and one connector per end.

it seems the 500 connectors are more geared towards panel and cabinetry joints and  700 for more solid wood joints and bigger wood structures.

There is the possibility that I  would have access to the 700 connectors but my material thickness  for the side aprons is 26/27mm thick and I read that the 700 can only be used on 30 mm thick material. I could glue on 3mm of mounting material on the inside of the apron but not so keen on the idea.

Another possibility would be adapting the design and cutting half laps for the stretchers and using threaded inserts to really clamp down on the joint

 

[ChuckM]

I really can't tell from your diagrams how big the build is as only the stock thickness is given. The DF 500 connectors may be strong enough or may be not is the only conclusion I could draw.

 

[reck]

I'm sorry exuse me I left those important details out. the basic frame is about just over a meter long and is 80 cm wide.

 

[ChuckM]

So this will be more like a full size dining table, roughly 2.5' x 6'.

I thought from first reading that it was a knock-down tabe and therefore connectors were a possible choice. But you seemed to mention about clamping in your latest post, I am not entirely sure what the connectors would be for.

About rigidity, the table top would provide a lot of that if it is properly mounted to the base (although you didn't say how the top would be attached to the base), whether eventually the DF500 or 700 connectors are chosen.