Domino end stops

[Eli]

But, in the case of the "cross stop", something is wrong; it does not do what they (Festool) say it is supposed to do.  Therefore, they need to either change their marketing of the attachment or fix it so it does what THEY say it does.

The point being, it does do what they say it does. Don't expect them to back up a claim they didn't make in the first place.

 

[jo041326]

My problems with end stops are over from the time I stopped using 5mm dominoes.
Josef

 

[fidelfs]

But, in the case of the "cross stop", something is wrong; it does not do what they (Festool) say it is supposed to do.  Therefore, they need to either change their marketing of the attachment or fix it so it does what THEY say it does.

The point being, it does do what they say it does. Don't expect them to back up a claim they didn't make in the first place.

Eli,

You have a valid point here, but the problem is that you expect the attachments have the same quality as the Domino.  Another post mention about German cars, I agree they are top of the line cars, what if they start using cheap tires, cheap paint and they disclose it before you buy the BMW, or Mercedes Benz.  Will this make it all right?  Yes, because they didn't deceive you, but you expect more from them.  When you buy a car in that range you are not thinking to save $500.  If I do, the I should buy a KIA, or Hyundai, I want a car that will last along time with almost zero problems.

Domino is not cheap, when I bought it I knew I had to think twice because the money hurts, but I felt comfort in the idea of the festool quality so I knew I was getting an exceptional tool.  Would it be better to increase, I don't know $50 or $100 and have those attachments up to par with the Domino quality?

To be fair, I didn't buy the Domino because the attachments,  I did it because the machine.  I am a little disappointed but thats all.

 

[Dave Ronyak]

I don't view the problems with use of the Domino attachments as being rooted in inferior quality of design, materials or manufacture.  My cross stops mount quickly with repeatable accuracy.  The chosen plastic materials are fine, too.  But we can argue that there is an inherent problem in the design because the location of every successive mortise is dependent on accurate and reliable registration against the side of the mortise just made previously.  And that is dependent on getting a clean cut with no "hanging chad" debris interfering with registration of the pin of the cross stop.  Maybe by the year 2020, GPS will be so commonly incorporated in devices that Festool can use GPS to precisely position those mortices.  Until then, or until Festool adds a precision laser/sonic referencing system, I plan to use my pencil to mark the pieces to be joined because I know that works reliably for me.

Dave R.

 

[Brice Burrell]

  My view is a little different than most here, I think they work. We have established there is inaccuracies in the pins and possible problems with indexing them in the mortises. But do they work or not? How well any given tool works is subjective so each person's opinion may differ. The OP states the cross stops "don't work as they should" here and on other forums as well. On the JLC forum he goes even farther, stating they "don't work". A he wrote, the mortises are off by 2-3 mm over 6 mortises using the middle width, his conclusion is that the tenons won't fit. That is wrong as I pointed out on the other forum, the mortises would have to be out more than 5 mm for the tenons not to fit. His response was they don't work and that I should just try it. Well I know it works because I've done it!

  Here are a few pictures showing mortises that were cut with the cross stops. The first mortise in each piece was indexed with the Domino's built in pins with the tight setting. The following seven in each piece were cut with the middle setting and the cross stops set to 100 mm. The first picture shows all of the mortises cut. The second pic shows the error after eight mortises, in this case just under 2 mm. All of the tenons will fit into the mortises. The picture shows the two pieces together, with all the tenons fitting in to the mortises.

  I have a real problem with incorrect information being spread around, I don't think anyone had malicious intent. I know I've been quick to judge products in the past, I think I'm going to be a little more careful before I criticize in the future.

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Brice,

I have no doubt that what you wrote and what you demonstrated is correct.  I am impressed with your success wih plywood.  My experiences have been different with plywood.  I suspect the cross stops would work perfectly in a homogenous material, e.g. MDF, particle board core melamine, and many solid surface materials.  One of the problems I have experienced is where to place the domino tenons relative to the edges of the "extra-width" mortises (other than the mating pair of mortises nearest the reference edges of the work pieces to be joined).  Occasionally I've run into the problem when placing 5mm tenons in 3/4 birch plywood to be joined that some of the tenons don't line up within the width range of the complementary set of mortises in the second piece of wood.  (Talk about panic and frantic paced work once you have driven a few domino tenons with Titebond before you realize your mistake!) To avoid that problem I find that I need to check the relative alignment of the pairs of complementary mortises, and to ensure I position the loose tenons correctly, its best to apply a pencil mark.  So, at least for myself, I have found it simpler and quicker to simply use pencil marks before I machine the mortises.  With that simple step the mortises always line up, and I avoid undesired excitement during glue-up.

Dave R.

 

[spikfot]

Dave gets the zinger of the week week.

  "I avoid undesired excitement during glue-up"
 
Even after a dry fit, I still end up running around like a headless chicken and inevitably soaked with sweat by the time the clamps are set. 

I get more "hanging chads" when I dont have my ct hooked up. Also when I'm too lazy to hook up my vac, the fan blows the debris directly back up into my face.  Festoops.
 

 

[Brice Burrell]

  Dave it's really not an issue of which technique works better, I'm *not* trying to convince anyone to use the cross stops. The point is the cross stops work as advertised. The Domino has a learning curve like any other tool, through experience I've learned the proper technique to use the cross stops. People seem to blame the tool when they don't get the results they wanted (or expected). This thread is a very good example of that. The issue here is operator error coupled with a misconception, then the spread of this bad info on the Internet. Operator error is responsible for excessive "accumulated error" when using the cross stops. Then people jump to the conclusion that because the mortises don't perfectly align the tenons won't fit because they inserted them in the wrong place.

  Here are some tips to get better results when using the cross stops. First, remove head from sphincter, then operate tool, this is good advice when using any power tool but applies particularly well here. Properly indexing the cross stop's pins is important, make sure the pin is actually in the mortise, this is an issue with the 5 mm size. Apply lateral pressure to ensure good contact between the pin and the edge of the mortise. This will reduce any problems with debris in the mortise and hold the Domino in place while the mortise is being cut. Test fitting the pieces is always a good idea, I realize people skip this step, I do on occasion too. Now to address the heart of the problem, misunderstanding. To make the tenons fit into mating mortises that is slightly misaligned, do not center the tenon in the mortise, it will not fit that way. Place the tenon in the mortise to account the offset in the mating mortise. Using the largest width will allow you to make a long run of mortises before the accumulated error becomes too much for the tenons to fit. For really long runs try indexing half on the mortises form one edge then the then the second half from the other end of the piece. This will get twice the number of mortises before thing won't line up.

Edit: The "remove head from sphincter" comment is not directed at anyone in particular, just a general comment about using tools. Please no one take offense.

 

[fidelfs]

Brice,

I think we have to agree to disagree. All the posts in favor explain how to make them work. The key word is "make them to work".

Some suggest use pencil marks instead the cross stops, or for long pieces start from one edge and for the other half start from the other, etc.  In my book is "making them to work".

Cross stops are not up to par with the Domino, I think the issue is quality in the cross stop material.  The design requires some pressure to maintain the pin in the mortise. When you press the Domino the force is not transmitted to the cross stops in the same ratio.  This is causing some of the "user error".

I can make it work as well, I always double check with my other hand the pin is fully inserted and against the edge.  I use the mid setting and when I know is a long piece, I use the high setting.  Is this how the Festool tools should work, requiring a third hand (this is a joke  ;D), Of course not.  You know the festool tools don't work like that festool tools are a pleasure to use.  I cannot say the same thing to this attachment.

 

[Dixon Peer]

Brice,

I think we have to agree to disagree. All the posts in favor explain how to make them work. The key word is "make them to work".

Some suggest use pencil marks instead the cross stops, or for long pieces start from one edge and for the other half start from the other, etc.  In my book is "making them to work".

Cross stops are not up to par with the Domino, I think the issue is quality in the cross stop material.  The design requires some pressure to maintain the pin in the mortise. When you press the Domino the force is not transmitted to the cross stops in the same ratio.  This is causing some of the "user error".

I can make it work as well, I always double check with my other hand the pin is fully inserted and against the edge.  I use the mid setting and when I know is a long piece, I use the high setting.  Is this how the Festool tools should work, requiring a third hand (this is a joke  ;D), Of course not.  You know the festool tools don't work like that festool tools are a pleasure to use.  I cannot say the same thing to this attachment.

Right on.

 

[Dave Ronyak]

  Dave it's really not an issue of which technique works better, I'm trying to convince anyone to use the cross stops. The point is the cross stops work as advertised. The Domino has a learning curve like any other tool, through experience I've learned the proper technique to use the cross stops. People seem to blame the tool when they don't get the results they wanted (or expected). This thread is a very good example of that. The issue here is operator error coupled with a misconception, then the spread of this bad info on the Internet. Operator error is responsible for excessive "accumulated error" when using the cross stops. Then people jump to the conclusion that because the mortises don't perfectly align the tenons won't fit because they inserted them in the wrong place.

Brice,

Thanks for the tips.  You are right in pointing out that the problem is most likely to occur with the 5 mm mortises, but that is what I am making most of the time (joining 3/4 inch plywood stock).  I tried the steps you described, and very consciously greatly slowed down the plunging rate (which helps avoid "hanging chad" or other debris remaining in the mortises).  But to be absolutely certain that the pin is registered fully against the side of tme, I have to bend down and peer under the Domino machine to ensure the pin is in contact with the side of the previous mortise.  Rather than do that, I find it simpler, faster, and easier on my body to simply make some pencil marks and rely on those.  So using pencil marks is more efficent and reliable for me as a hobbyist. 

Dave R.

 

[Dixon Peer]

Yup, the pencil mark method is more accurate than the attachment that is SOLD by Festool to guarantee accurate indexing of mortises down a line of work to be joined.  I don't care how others on this or other forums try to frame this discussion, the fact is the "end stops" don't work the way they should.

 

[Brice Burrell]

Yup, the pencil mark method is more accurate than the attachment that is SOLD by Festool to guarantee accurate indexing of mortises down a line of work to be joined.  I don't care how others on this or other forums try to frame this discussion, the fact is the "end stops" don't work the way they should.

Dixon, no question the pencil method works well and I agree it will guarantee alignment even over a long series of mortises.

Help me understand your comment. First how should the cross stops work? Do you think my method doesn't work? Where is my technique / argument flawed in your eyes? If the cross stops worked for you do you think there would be an advantage to using then over the pencil method? And the last, and this one is very important to me, why do you think the cross stops work for me and not you? In fact, please anyone answer the last question, I really would like to hear what you have to say.

 

[fidelfs]

Yup, the pencil mark method is more accurate than the attachment that is SOLD by Festool to guarantee accurate indexing of mortises down a line of work to be joined.  I don't care how others on this or other forums try to frame this discussion, the fact is the "end stops" don't work the way they should.

Dixon, no question the pencil method works well and I agree it will guarantee alignment even over a long series of mortises.

Help me understand your comment. First how should the cross stops work? Do you think my method doesn't work? Where is my technique / argument flawed in your eyes? If the cross stops worked for you do you think there would be an advantage to using then over the pencil method? And the last, and this one is very important to me, why do you think the cross stops work for me and not you? In fact, please anyone answer the last question, I really would like to hear what you have to say.

Brice,

Don't take it the wrong way.  Everyone is happy or unhappy with something.  I told you the difference is you are trying to make it work.  They don't work as they should.
If I follow your instructions, I am sure the mortises will be ok, but this is the issue.  We have to do extra work to make it up for the deficiencies of the cross stops.  We are doing something to help the shortcomings of the attachments.    I need a tool/attachment to help me with my work not the other way around.

You are taking a position and you won't change your mind.  That is perfect all right.  Some of us we don't like it them. It does not work for us, period.

That does not means we are less woodworkers that others, It does not fit our stile, or maybe we expect more from that.
We can not convince you and you won't convince us.  We have to agree to disagree as Gentleman's.

I am very happy some festool owners like the cross cuts.  They don't work as they should for me. 

 

[Eli]

The real issue is whether you are prepared to accept that the tool has limitations (and it is commonly distributed and official limitations), not whether or not the tool works or not. Your biscuit joiner didn't have cross stops that were accurate, what did you do way back then?

 

[fidelfs]

Your biscuit joiner didn't have cross stops that were accurate, what did you do way back then? Cheesy

Eli,

You are talking about stone age.  I used some rocks (the same ones, that I use to hunt for my food) to keep it accurate but I had some issues with the rocks crumbling and the next rock was  not aligned because all the debris.  ;D

Seriously,  what your are saying is correct. I am not prepared to accept this attachment has this limitations.  I expected more from this and Festool.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Brice,

I think we have to agree to disagree. All the posts in favor explain how to make them work. The key word is "make them to work".

Some suggest use pencil marks instead the cross stops, or for long pieces start from one edge and for the other half start from the other, etc.  In my book is "making them to work".

To me it is simply learning to "use" the tool.

If you only have a Starrett precision engraved 12" rule and you have to layout a series of mortises across a 3 foot table top how do you "make it work"? It won't "work". But, if you figure out how to "use" it you can get the job done.

If you are looking for precision layout of sequential mortises (with no operator intervention) then you'll have to invent something else. The cross stops use the leap frog method of sequential layout which is guaranteed to be imprecise. But, it is close enough when using the wider mortise settings and it is damn fast.

 

[Dave Rudy]

I guess my head was made for taking off, so I'll jump in.  I'd like to make a distinction between the angle guide (FS-FK?) and the cross stops.  I haven't used the cross stops enough to comment on the tool, but I can observe from listening to all of you that what some are complaining about is probably an intentional design limitation as opposed to a defect.  Who needs to use the smallest size mortises in the middle of a run, when the end mortises index the whole run precisely?  Festool probably figured that making a more precise and much more expensive tool which would cost a lot more was not worth the effort since its utility is highly suspect.

The angle bracket, on the other hand, simply does not do a good job of what it was actually designed for.  It is the first and only festool product I am aware of that is just not up to snuff.

Would we criticize a highly accurate 1/2mm rule because it wasn't marked out in 1/10mm intervals?  Why criticize the cross stop when it is functioning as it reasonably should and probably as intended to function?

(OK, here's my head (figuratively, of course)).

 

[Loren Hedahl]

This thread has been of interest to me since I am not one of those who sold, gave away or otherwise abandoned my trusty DeWalt biscuit jointer after purchasing a Domino setup. 

The main reason is "I am cheap" and I had quite a stock of biscuits on hand.    Another reason is for plywood cabinetry, I have worked out a system using biscuits and drywall screws that is fast and needs no external clamping in most cases.  The biscuit system is quite forgiving on exact location.

However for solid wood joinery, where a mortise and tenon would be the best, the Domino excels. 

The only place where I still use biscuits is for the mitered corner frame and panel cabinet doors I like.  I don't see how the parts for these could be assembled using Dominoes at the corners.  Actually the first three sides could be assembled, but the last side would not be possible.  So I still use biscuits in this application.

 

[fidelfs]

Brice,

I think we have to agree to disagree. All the posts in favor explain how to make them work. The key word is "make them to work".

Some suggest use pencil marks instead the cross stops, or for long pieces start from one edge and for the other half start from the other, etc.  In my book is "making them to work".

To me it is simply learning to "use" the tool.

If you only have a Starrett precision engraved 12" rule and you have to layout a series of mortises across a 3 foot table top how do you "make it work"? It won't "work". But, if you figure out how to "use" it you can get the job done.

If you are looking for precision layout of sequential mortises (with no operator intervention) then you'll have to invent something else. The cross stops use the leap frog method of sequential layout which is guaranteed to be imprecise. But, it is close enough when using the wider mortise settings and it is damn fast.

Thank,  This reaffirm my thoughts.  Some are really happy with this design some are not.  I am not happy.
Simple as this.  If I have to do double work to make mortises with the cross stop, I rather use the pencil marks.  Is the lead pencil a more advance tool and accurate tool? No, of course not.  It works better, Yes, it does.  This is what many are doing.

Let's agree to this.  Your work stile will determine what a tool is required for you and how you perform your job.
I am a hobbyist and I try to enjoy woodworking.  I don't enjoy using the festool attachments due of its shortcomings and they don't fit my requirements.