Domino/joinery advice needed

[Mellowfellow]

Hi,

I'm new posting to this forum, so hello everyone!

I've got a project going and the stock cut, but I'm undecided on how to proceed. I own an XL Domino and have some 12 and 14mm dominoes. I've got 2x2 nominal or more precisely 45x45mm oak for this.

So where I am stuck is how I join these corners.
The top bit at the front will have a 100x20 skirting going around to hide it neat, so whatever I do there doesn't really matter other than has to be strong. Middle will be half lap + 2 screws with plugs hiding it. the bottom corners, once again I'm undecided, they have to be stable to stop racking.

The top bit is quartz sink unit joined from two, so you can see where the joint is in the picture. 6 legs in total of the unit, 2 under the seam to support it flat. Under the quartz counter/sink unit I am using 18mm plywood, which will be hidden by the skirting boards.

One of the bigger problems here that I have is the fact that I can put only one domino in the top corner and then it goes only 25mm into the leg because there's two of them.

I can't really clamp them on the long end as I don't own a pipe clamp. there's a chance i could source a ratchet strap, but I'm not convinced about that either.

I've tried drilling 3mm hole and putting in screw through the domino to secure it mechanically like you would mortice with a dowel. Technically speaking it "works" in a sense that when I will glue it it won't come out, but it doesn't pull the joint together. It wouldn't matter very much visually as it will be mostly hidden, but the bottom joints will be visible, and the gaps in the joint certainly don't make it stable. I can get them pretty stable with stretcher plates that are used for countertops, but then is that OTT?

Hope this all makes sense. And ideas or advice will be appreciated.

Thanks!

[attachimg=1]

View attachment 2

 

[nvalinski]

You own a Domino XL but can't acquire a pipe clamp?  [blink]

I would consider making the posts go all the way to the bottom of the counter and run the skirting similar to the lower shelf support skirt. Then you could clamp a 4-legged half to start with some shorter clamps, then clamp on the two remaining legs with the same short clamps to reach the middle legs.

 

[Svar]

I would consider making the posts go all the way to the bottom of the counter and run the skirting similar to the lower shelf support skirt.

I agree with the above. Much better look, classic apron-leg table design, typical use for domino tenons.

I've tried drilling 3mm hole and putting in screw through the domino to secure it mechanically like you would mortice with a dowel. Technically speaking it "works" in a sense that when I will glue it it won't come out, but it doesn't pull the joint together.

No, just get some pipe clamps.

 

[ChuckM]

Why was there a gap in the joint in the first place? I don't recall ever seeing gaps when I hammer a Domino joint (DF500, tight to tight) together.

As for clamping, if the joint is cut well with a tight fit, you can pair up clamps (c-clamp, handscrew, F-style clamp, etc.) near the joint to provide the clamping pressure needed.

 

[Mellowfellow]

Hi all! Thanks for quick replies.
I knew that I was going to be embarassed about the screws in the dominoes, but experiments are part of learning..

You own a Domino XL but can't acquire a pipe clamp?  [blink]

I would consider making the posts go all the way to the bottom of the counter and run the skirting similar to the lower shelf support skirt. Then you could clamp a 4-legged half to start with some shorter clamps, then clamp on the two remaining legs with the same short clamps to reach the middle legs.

I don’t own pipe clamp partially because I’ve managed to get away without so far, but also main reason is that I do not have a workshop and space to store 2m plus pipe clamps..

So, the posts go all the way from the bottom to the top, I am attaching a picture in regards to the leghts and cuts, hope this makes sense and clears things up a little.
I am using skirting to help and hide the plywood behind it. Plywood is on top of the whole assembly.  I definitely need it to help and support the quartz countertop.

View attachment 1

So another thing is that if I want to put the domino on both ends it will go only about 15 mm in before hitting the other domino. So for my experiment I’ve mitered both dominoes to put them in as deep as I can, which at the end was about 25mm.

Why was there a gap in the joint in the first place? I don't recall ever seeing gaps when I hammer a Domino joint (DF500, tight to tight) together.

As for clamping, if the joint is cut well with a tight fit, you can pair up clamps (c-clamp, handscrew, F-style clamp, etc.) near the joint to provide the clamping pressure needed.

Thanks for the tip with multiple clamps! This just might do the trick.
As as for the gap, I’m not sure at the moment, might need to recheck it.

 

[ChuckM]

The dominoes are manufactured to be shorter than the mortises are deep (as milled by the machine). For example, 8x50 dominoes are actually 48mm long.

Unless you didn't plunge completely all the way in or glue overflowing (errors sometimes people make), the dominoes wouldn't bottom out. The first kind of mistake, if made, is detectable during the dry-fitting process.

 

[Mellowfellow]

The dominoes are manufactured to be shorter than the mortises are deep (as milled by the machine). For example, 8x50 dominoes are actually 48mm long.

Unless you didn't plunge completely all the way in or glue overflowing (errors sometimes people make), the dominoes wouldn't bottom out. Such mistakes, if made, are detectable during the dry-fitting process.

Yeah, that might be it, I think I wanted to see how far I should go in the post where the two dominoes meet. Anyways, please ignore that gap, I’m pretty sure that when I go to redo the experiment I’ll get it flush. My main concern is it single 14x75 domino on the corner is good enough to be stable if only 20mm of it goes into the post and then I have to miter it because there’s another one coming from the right/left.

 

[ChuckM]

Snip.
Yeah, that might be it, I think I wanted to see how far I should go in the post where the two dominoes meet. Anyways, please ignore that gap, I’m pretty sure that when I go to redo the experiment I’ll get it flush. My main concern is it single 14x75 domino on the corner is good enough to be stable if only 20mm of it goes into the post and then I have to miter it because there’s another one coming from the right/left.

If the top is screwed or secured to the base all around, you don't have to worry about racking, and the joints look fine to me.

I'm not familiar with the sizes of the dominoes for the XL (other than the 10mm), but you can also consider off-center placements of the dominoes so they can go deeper, or the use of double tenons if workable.

 

[Mellowfellow]

If the top is screwed or secured to the base all around, you don't have to worry about racking, and the joints look fine to me.

I'm not familiar with the sizes of the dominoes for the XL (other than the 10mm), but you can also consider off-center placements of the dominoes so they can go deeper, or the use of double tenons if workable.

The XL covers 8mm to 14mm.
I use 14mm as a rule of one 3rd for mortices.
The two could work, but that would mean getting 8/10mm domino set, which I guess would be useful to have anyways.
Is there a good benefit of having two small mortices, in this case of 8mm over one that is 14mm?

Also, thanks for advice of attaching it to ply, my gut feel was that it would work well to stabilise, but it’s great and useful to hear other people suggestions as it’s easy to overlook things.

 

[ChuckM]

Snip.
The XL covers 8mm to 14mm.
I use 14mm as a rule of one 3rd for mortices.
The two could work, but that would mean getting 8/10mm domino set, which I guess would be useful to have anyways.
Is there a good benefit of having two small mortices, in this case of 8mm over one that is 14mm?

Also, thanks for advice of attaching it to ply, my gut feel was that it would work well to stabilise, but it’s great and useful to hear other people suggestions as it’s easy to overlook things.

Double tenons (8mm, say 20mm deep into the mating piece) are better than one single tenon (14mm, also 20mm deep) to me in terms of resisting racking. In a table build, I used double twin tenons (milled on stock about 42mm thick)...that joint will outlast me! [big grin]

In your case, as noted,  the top as well as the lower shelf shall provide the necessary structural rigidity with the 14mm dominoes.

 

[clark_fork]

You have not mentioned a vacuum. Perhaps there is sawdust remaining in the mortise that would prevent full seating.  Most find a vacuum essential for both Dominos

A Parfitt Tip

[attachimg=1]

Second Reminder...  A 45 degree cut for close in mortises
[attachimg=3]

 

[CeeJay]

It’s ok for one domino to cut into the side of another, so long as the first one is already glued solid.

Also if you don’t have long clamps, but do have a short room or two parallel walls which are a bit further apart than your long work piece, you can take a K-body type parallel clamp and reverse it into a spreader to push the piece hard up against the opposite wall instead of clamping. With care you can use 2x4s as spacers to make this work in whatever room you have.

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[Mellowfellow]

You have not mentioned a vacuum. Perhaps there is sawdust remaining in the mortise that would prevent full seating.  Most find a vacuum essential for both Dominos

A Parfitt Tip

[attachimg=1]

Second Reminder...  A 45 degree cut for close in mortises
[attachimg=3]

Great tip, thanks! I'll make myself a tiny jig for tsc55 to do the miters for dominoes precisely I think if I need it with the 8 x 80mm.

I do have a CTL MIDI and it works a treat with the XL, so no issues there. I have 6 x 90cm sash clamps and couple of shorter ones so I think I'll be fine at the end. I will start bit by bit and get there.

It’s ok for one domino to cut into the side of another, so long as the first one is already glued solid.

Also if you don’t have long clamps, but do have a short room or two parallel walls which are a bit further apart than your long work piece, you can take a K-body type parallel clamp and reverse it into a spreader to push the piece hard up against the opposite wall instead of clamping. With care you can use 2x4s as spacers to make this work in whatever room you have.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for this! I'm not in a small room, but it's a good tip in general!

Double tenons (8mm, say 20mm deep into the mating piece) are better than one single tenon (14mm, also 20mm deep) to me in terms of resisting racking. In a table build, I used double twin tenons (milled on stock about 42mm thick)...that joint will outlast me! [big grin]

I've just ordered a selection of 10mm and 8mm dominoes with extra 8 x80mm ones for this project in particular, I'll go double smaller tenon as you've suggested.
Thanks for all the tips and advice everyone.

 

[Packard]

Very simple.  You only need an electric drill, overlength dowels, some screws and glue.

Steps:

1.  Glue and screw from the inside.  Allow glue to dry.
2.  Remove all the screws.
3.  Re-drill the same holes as the screws using a drill bit with a stop collar in the diameter of your chosen dowel size.
4.  Drill to a depth of about 1/2" into the 3/4" thick skirting.
5.  Apply glue to the now vacant holes and tap in dowels that are 2" long.  (1.5" through the legs + 0.5" into the skirting).
6.  Allow the glue to dry and add a finish.

I used to build drawers this way.  It is fast, easy and strong.  It does not require any special equipment other than the stop collar for the drill bits. 

You will be using dowels across two planes and you have to make sure that you are not drilling into the other dowels.  But note that a great deal of structure will be gained from attaching to the wall. There is no chance of wobble in either direction. 

 

[JonathanJung]

How about a pipe clamp that's 2 pieces of 1m pipe with a coupler? Break it down for storage.

 

[Mellowfellow]

How about a pipe clamp that's 2 pieces of 1m pipe with a coupler? Break it down for storage.

Never thought of that. Just ordered a set of clamps and pipes, really hope they work together and I didn’t get wrong sizes