Domino Pantry Drawers

[rajun.services]

Hello!

This is first festool domino project with 1/2 inch stock.
I'm building pantry cabinets with drawers, Frameless, undermount blum 563.
My drawer size is 8 inches high, 21 deep and 27 1/8 wide.
I want to use tenons and want to know what should the spacing be? Given that I have dadoed for  1/2 drawer base and 9/16 clearance from the bottom for blum.
How do I space those tenons and what setting I should make those? Tight, middle and wide?
And If I do Tight, Do I keep both Vertical and Horizontal Tight?
Please advise.
Also what is the best cabinet clamps you have used during assembly to keep this square?

 

[afish]

I have done all sorts of spacing and havent found much of a difference for strength.  8" high drawer I would do atleast 3 or more.  Festool has some guidelines on spacing but truthfully I just go with what looks good to me, since I do exposed dominos.  Are you doing "exposed" domino drawers or hiding the domino? 

 

[rajun.services]

I'm doing hidden dominos.
I'm going with 4mm and the guide stops works from 5mm onwards, can't truly use those, just have to align and mark with pencil. Hoping that the fit will be accurate as long as the pencil marks align.. Fingers crossed.

 

[Goldserve]

Watch this:=PLpBJfh9Law-BeGyB5-IGNTLwt3-7-8IUy&index=35

 

[afish]

Ok, I havent ever used the 4mm cutter. I know there have been some complaints that it is a little to delicate but I never tried it so cant say for sure.  I typically use the 6mm on 3/4 and 5mm on the 1/2 drawers all exposed. I usually try to stick with the 3/4 material.  If I had easy access to 5/8 - 11ply I would prefer that but the place I buy from only sells the 3/4 or 1/2.  I tend to only use the narrow setting not so sure how I would feel about using the sloppy setting for drawers.  Let us know how they turn out. 

 

[Mike Goetzke]

Nice video above. I have about a half dozen shop drawers to make. I usually DT them but wanted to try the through Dominos. I remember seeing (probably here at the FOG) a guy using a low cost Harbor freight DT jig to hold both the front and side at 90 to each other and plunged the mortise through both pieces in one shot. Is there any drawbacks to doing it this way?

Thanks

 

[afish]

So a couple interesting points.  1. if you have spent anytime on here you know if you bring up "centered" dominos you will have no shortage of people telling you dont ever need to.  This is one of those times that you do.  Its 11:32 in the video incase you missed it.  Getting a 6mm domino in 1/2 stock doesnt leave much room for error.  2.  You will see even sedge makes a few mistakes and is why I dont try to mortise my sides and front separately.  I like to glue and clamp then come back and plunge through the side into the front/back all in one step then tap in the dominos.  Any misalignment wont matter.  Im also a little surprised there was no blowout on that cheap particle board stock he was using. I would never trust a 6mm domino in particle board anyways.  I only do it with plywood and usually only Russian birch so there is a lot more strength.
However, you better make sure your paddles are dialed in good for sedges method. 

It was also interesting to see sedge doesn't spin the vac-sys but chooses to release the vacuum then flip the part.  Is that others preferred method for rotating a part?   

 

[ChuckM]

Hello!

This is first festool domino project with 1/2 inch stock.
I'm building pantry cabinets with drawers, Frameless, undermount blum 563.
My drawer size is 8 inches high, 21 deep and 27 1/8 wide.
I want to use tenons and want to know what should the spacing be? Given that I have dadoed for  1/2 drawer base and 9/16 clearance from the bottom for blum.
How do I space those tenons and what setting I should make those? Tight, middle and wide?
And If I do Tight, Do I keep both Vertical and Horizontal Tight?
Please advise.
Also what is the best cabinet clamps you have used during assembly to keep this square?

It isn't clear to me how much height is left on the 8" board from the "1/2 drawer base."

If the remaining height is, say, 7" (178mm), i'd put three 5mm* (not 4mmx17mmx20mm) tenons. I'd use 5mm* (not 4 mm) dominoes assuming the stock is plywood or manufactured sheets, not hardwood. * edited

Setting --  Tight setting on the endgrain edge (side), one tight (on the reference edge) and the other two middle on the front. Make sure the depth is probaby set o you don't blow through the front.

Do I keep both Vertical and Horizontal Tight? -- Not sure about your question.

Clamping -- regular clamps since the tenons will keep the case square, but do check the diagonals for square.

 

[ChuckM]

You will see even sedge makes a few mistakes and is why I dont try to mortise my sides and front separately.  I like to glue and clamp then come back and plunge through the side into the front/back all in one step then tap in the dominos.

He was making the typical user mistakes because he rushed through the job (probably under pressure to finish the live episode within certain time). No matter how many times one uses the DF, it takes only one moment of mix-up or inattention for a cut to get screwed up. The Domino Joiner is really a great machine to get a job done in the shortest amount of time -- either correctly or erroneously. 

You're spot-on that for through/exposed tenons, the best way is to get the mating pieces together and then mortise them as one piece. I'll post some pictures on how I do that shortly (the plan is to do some tomorrow or so). Hint: It isn't that complicated.

 

[rajunagu]

Hello!

This is first festool domino project with 1/2 inch stock.
I'm building pantry cabinets with drawers, Frameless, undermount blum 563.
My drawer size is 8 inches high, 21 deep and 27 1/8 wide.
I want to use tenons and want to know what should the spacing be? Given that I have dadoed for  1/2 drawer base and 9/16 clearance from the bottom for blum.
How do I space those tenons and what setting I should make those? Tight, middle and wide?
And If I do Tight, Do I keep both Vertical and Horizontal Tight?
Please advise.
Also what is the best cabinet clamps you have used during assembly to keep this square?

It isn't clear to me how much height is left on the 8" board from the "1/2 drawer base."

If the remaining height is, say, 7" (178mm), i'd put three 4mmx17mmx20mm tenons. I'd use 4mm dominoes assuming the stock is plywood or manufactured sheets, not hardwood,

Setting --  Tight setting on the endgrain edge (side), one tight (on the reference edge) and the other two middle on the front. Make sure the depth is probaby set o you don't blow through the front.

Do I keep both Vertical and Horizontal Tight? -- Not sure about your question.

Clamping -- regular clamps since the tenons will keep the case square, but do check the diagonals for square.

Thank you Chuck and aFish!
I have watched Sedge religiously play with Festool toys. I watch live on Friday sometimes as well.

In another carcass build on SedgeTools YT Channel, he was building Tight on Edge and middle on the inside.

In our my case, I positioned it at 37mm (using the offset), then used my fastcap 32mm tape and measured at 96mm and 160mm as the other two spots.

To answer your qns on Vertical / Horizontal setting.. If I make the edge one say the top most one 37mm from the top edge Tight on my vertical, I do Tight mortise on the Horizontal too to match it  -- Is that right?
As you explained the other two will be set in middle setting and all 4 mortises will be at middle position - Is that right?
I have set my depth at 20 which would give me a 10mm on both side. Should I make it 12 on the horizontal (on the face) and 20 on the grain?

I work with 1/2 inch Baltic Birch on this project. I should've picked 5/8 for drawers. Maybe on subsequent projects.

 

[Birdhunter]

The last set or drawers I made were Dominoed using 5mm and my usual narrow-wide mortises. I had acquired two sets of welding squares from Fireball Tools so I used those for the first time to clamp the sides square as the glue dried. I’ll never go back to any other method of clamping square. The Fireball Squares are extremely square and allow great clamping options. I’d ordered a set of cast iron squares first and then an aluminum set. I much prefer thr aluminum squares. I’ve used the squares a few times since and they have been great. My Starrett square shows the Fireball squares to be totally flat and totally square.

Just a caution,,,, look the squares over carefully when received. I have sent some back for exposed casting voids. Doesn’t matter for welding to have casting voids, but does matter for fine woodworking,

 

[ChuckM]

Snip.

In our my case, I positioned it at 37mm (using the offset), then used my fastcap 32mm tape and measured at 96mm and 160mm as the other two spots.

To answer your qns on Vertical / Horizontal setting.. If I make the edge one say the top most one 37mm from the top edge Tight on my vertical, I do Tight mortise on the Horizontal too to match it  -- Is that right?
As you explained the other two will be set in middle setting and all 4 mortises will be at middle position - Is that right?
I have set my depth at 20 which would give me a 10mm on both side. Should I make it 12 on the horizontal (on the face) and 20 on the grain?

I work with 1/2 inch Baltic Birch on this project. I should've picked 5/8 for drawers. Maybe on subsequent projects.

I'm not familiar with the Blum slides. If you have a sketch, I may be able to understand your question better.

 

[nclemmons]

I did a chest of drawers with 1/2” poplar.  Six drawers about 22” wide x 22” deep.  I think the drawers were 6”.  I did three thru dominos in the tight setting, glued, trimmed with a flush saw upon drying and sanded flush. 

On 1/2” I think there is less risk of messing up with thru domino approach.  And they add a nice detail.

Biggest risk with thru dominoes on Baltic birch is the chipping out of the wood fibers on the narrow edges.  but with care I think you can do it.  Glue and pin nail it, then do your dominoes.

 

[rajun.services]

All blum undermount would require is the drawer base is offset from the bottom 9/16 inch. That way the runs can be mounted under and is invisible.
So going back to your explanation of using the 178mm reference.. my doubt is more on the "setting".
If I make 3 mortises, the first being the one on the top, then 2 more going down, what should be mortise depth for the vertical piece (Drawer side) and what should be depth on the horizontal piece (which is the drawer front).
If I make the first mortise tight, should I make the holes tight on both ends?
If I make the second and third mortise middle, should I make the holes middle on both ends?
Sorry no sketch up or Fusion 360 yet..

 

[rajun.services]

I did a chest of drawers with 1/2” poplar.  Six drawers about 22” wide x 22” deep.  I think the drawers were 6”.  I did three thru dominos in the tight setting, glued, trimmed with a flush saw upon drying and sanded flush. 

On 1/2” I think there is less risk of messing up with thru domino approach.  And they add a nice detail.

Biggest risk with thru dominoes on Baltic birch is the chipping out of the wood fibers on the narrow edges.  but with care I think you can do it.  Glue and pin nail it, then do your dominoes.

Hmm how would I glue and pin nail and the domino? 4mm bit doesn't have a depth that is going to mortise both pieces.

 

[ChuckM]

All blum undermount would require is the drawer base is offset from the bottom 9/16 inch. That way the runs can be mounted under and is invisible.
So going back to your explanation of using the 178mm reference.. my doubt is more on the "setting".
If I make 3 mortises, the first being the one on the top, then 2 more going down, what should be mortise depth for the vertical piece (Drawer side) and what should be depth on the horizontal piece (which is the drawer front).
If I make the first mortise tight, should I make the holes tight on both ends?
If I make the second and third mortise middle, should I make the holes middle on both ends?
Sorry no sketch up or Fusion 360 yet..

My mistake. I though 4mm is the second smaller tenon. I meant to recommend 5mm which is 30mm long because your drawers are pretty big.

The front is 1/2"(12.7mm or 12mm?), but you run the risk of a blow through if you set the depth to 12mm because the bit actually cuts deeper than 12mm (14mm or so) for glue excess. You can do a test cut to check if it's a problem for your stock.

So set the depth to 10mm for the front (see the supplemental manual on how to use a spacer to do that), 20mm for the side.

By sketch, I meant handdrawn ones.

Anyway, you don't need to match a middle mortise with a middle mortise. Just tight to middle.

 

[rajun.services]

OK Thanks. Got it. So a tight can go against a middle on Either vertical or horizontal.

 

[afish]

You will see even sedge makes a few mistakes and is why I dont try to mortise my sides and front separately.  I like to glue and clamp then come back and plunge through the side into the front/back all in one step then tap in the dominos.

He was making the typical user mistakes because he rushed through the job (probably under pressure to finish the live episode within certain time). No matter how many times one uses the DF, it takes only one moment of mix-up or inattention for a cut to get screwed up. The Domino Joiner is really a great machine to get a job done in the shortest amount of time -- either correctly or erroneously. 

You're spot-on that for through/exposed tenons, the best way is to get the mating pieces together and then mortise them as one piece. I'll post some pictures on how I do that shortly (the plan is to do some tomorrow or so). Hint: It isn't that complicated.

I wasnt making fun of or implying that Sedge was any less of a craftsman because he made a few mistakes.  Mike had asked if there was any drawbacks doing it that way.  So, I was pointing out that even a guy that has done it many times, prepped and labeled everything and most likely done a few extra trial runs just before the show still makes mistakes.  There's a lot of turning, flipping and sides to keep track of so it gets confusing fast as demonstrated by Sedge.  Everyone makes mistakes nothing against him. 

 

[afish]

As far as the drawers go.  I too would be using the 5mm cutter and all tight mortises.  As long as you have all your pieces cut square you shouldnt have to many issues with your boxes not being square they should prtty much square them selves. Here is brief overview of my typical work flow on domino drawers.

1. Cut parts (Since 5/8 is harder to find I use 3/4 most of the time.)  As you know 28mm is the max on a 6mm cutter with the 500 so I put a shallow (about 3mm) dado on the drawer sides where the front and backs meet to help make sure the domino is going a little deeper in the fronts and backs.  This also helps during assembly and keeps the drawer from sliding around so much during glue up.

2. Glue up the parts I put a 23ga pin near the top (where it wont get hit by a domino) and bottom to help keep it aligned.  Set aside and check for square. As mentioned should be very close adjust if needed by tapping on the long diagonal.  You can clamp if needed depending on the quality of the cuts and wood.  The BB or RB is usually nice and straight so I find I typically dont need to many clamps if any.

3. Set them aside and leave them them for preferably at least an hour to give the glue time to set. overnight even better.

4. Come back and start plunging all the dominos.  I install them as I go glue and tap them in they will be slightly proud of the surface since the shortest domino is 30mm.  I set them and always try to plunge vertically so im not putting any racking force on the drawer. 

5. Let the glue dry and come back with a flush trim bit in a router and clean up all the tails. 

6. Sand/finish

The method is basically the same for 1/2 with a 5mm cutter.  Just adjust or eliminate the dado as needed.  I will warn you that the 5mm cutter flares out at the bottom of the cutter so you have to dial back the depth slightly.  I have posted pics here before but if you look at a 6mm and 5mm side by side you will see what I mean. 

If your parts are all cut accurately and square it should go pretty smooth. If not you will be fighting it the whole way and end up with drawers that are out of square and bind if useable at all. 

 

[Packard]

I have two (2) Porter Cable dovetail jigs permanently setup along with two old P-C routers that are permanently setup. 

I can cut dovetails in minutes and the drawers will have the classic dovetail look.

The only time-consuming part of dovetail joints is setting up the router to the right depth.  I bypass that issue by having them permanently set up.

I recognize that this is an extravagant expenditure, but it is fast and turns out really nice drawers.