Domino problem! Much vibration and just how flush is the mortise supposed to be?

[festoller]

I've been working with my new Domino for several days and switching from a biscuit jointer I am really impressed with the versatility of this "Fes"tool, unfortunately now that I switched to Multiplex it seems the Domino is just a little too flush!

If I use the 5 mm bit with 5 x 30 mm dominos (15 mm Mortise depth on both sides) in Multiplex there?s no way to get the Dominos in without a hammer or out by hand if assembled dry.
From several Domino videos I can't remeber anyone using a hammer when putting the Dominos in.

After gluing I need strong clamps to even get the work pieces together, because again by hand it's impossible. Switching from standard mortise width to +6 mm helps a little, but it seems the mortise height is causing this problem, besides at least for the right and left end mortise I would prefer flush dominos. A test run with extended mortise depth didn't get me any better result either. Other than that the mortise looks accurate and fine.

The Domino is several days old fresh from the Festool warehouse and the Dominos where sealed in the usual plastic bag. So I don't think there's any problem there.

Domino size is exactly 28.2 x 19 x 5 mm for the standard and 28.2 x 18.8 x 5 mm for the Sipo.

There is one thing that seems a little off to me, the Domino vibrates almost shakes a little when lifted in the air to change the position, but is absolutely still when the fence face is placed on the work piece. I can't remember exactly if this was there from the start, but I don't think so.

Any though or help would be greatly appreciated!

 

[ajones]

Hi maybe you have a defecive cutter I would try other size cutters and domino's on some waste material if the problem persist's its the machine.

 

[Frank-Jan]

The shaking of the domino when the fence isn't resting on something is caused by the pendulum action of the cutterhead, and I think it's normal.

The domino mortices are fairly tight, and I can't get them out by hand either (I can put them in by hand, but mostly use a hammer). I've read a tip a few years ago, to lightly sand  a few dominoes, mark them and keep them for dryfitting (assembly without glue); that way it's easier to dissassemble, and then use fresh dominoes for the definitive glue up.

 

[ajones]

Hi I can push domino,s in by hand I do agree they are a snug fit and removing them is best done with with grips. making sure you have the machine flat on the material so the the mortices are in the same plane.

 

[festoller]

I've changed the mortise bit to a new one, although I couldn't see any visible damage and did another test mortise (see photo).

This is what I measured:

Domino Standard (5x30)
28.2 mm (lenght)
19.0 mm (width)
05.0 mm (height)

Domino Sipo (5x30)
28.2 mm (lenght)
18.8 mm (width)
05.0 mm (height)

Mortise (5 mm bit, 15 mm)
16.1 mm (depth)
18.5 mm (width)
05.0 mm (height)

[attachimg=1]

 

[ajones]

has the change if bit made any difference to fit-up? it all looks good to me [smile]

 

[Forrest Anderson]

I've been working with my new Domino for several days and switching from a biscuit jointer I am really impressed with the versatility of this "Fes"tool, unfortunately now that I switched to Multiplex it seems the Domino is just a little too flush!

You also titled your post "Domino problem! Much vibration and just how flush is the mortise supposed to be?"

In English and in this context, "flush" means level with a surface. So if I make a mortise hole for a Domino tenon, and then insert the Domino tenon into the mortise so that it is flush, it means that the end of the tenon is level with the surface surrounding the hole.

In your case, you are having problems inserting the Domino tenon into the mortise, and the word you need is "tight". For example, "the tenon is a tight fit into the mortise", or "the tenon is too tight".

Tight Domino tenons is a common problem, especially in the 5mm size, and this has been discussed before.

Try using the Search function to look for the two words "Domino" and "tight" and see what you can find.

Here are some threads/discussions for you to read:

tight fitting dominos
Tight fitting dominoes? Try this.
"Dry fit" Dominos
Domino Frustration

Three common solutions are:

Rub the tenons on some sandpaper before inserting them into the mortise
Once you have sanded them to the right thickness, keep a collection of tenons for dry-fits only (don't use them for glue-ups and final assembly)
Heat the tenons into a microwave for a short time before using them. Heating will make them shrink slightly.

There is one thing that seems a little off to me, the Domino vibrates almost shakes a little when lifted in the air to change the position, but is absolutely still when the fence face is placed on the work piece. I can't remember exactly if this was there from the start, but I don't think so.

I would say that the vibration when the machine is lifted in the air is normal - mine does the same.

Forrest

 

[ajones]

hi Forrest do you give French lessons too.......... [poke]

 

[bruegf]

I always put the dominos in the microwave for 10 or 15 seconds before I use them.  Seems the absorb just enough moisture from the air to swell a tiny bit.

Fred

 

[Rob-GB]

I think the slight confusion is in the translation of "fluchtgerecht" or a similar German word. It can mean "flush with" or "in alignment with".
As with many languages the meaning can alter due to inflection or context, English can be very hard to translate sometimes due to it's large root base.
It is what makes language so interesting  ;D
Maybe Festoller can advise further. [smile]
Rob.

Is swelling of the Domino biscuits an issue? Similar to that of biscuit jointer ones?

 

[festoller]

Forrest:
once again "Lost in Translation", that explains why I couldn't find proper posts to my problem, although I was thinking about the "flushness" (German: buendig, Buendigkeit) of the Domino surface and the mortise hole inside (thanks Rob for the support here). Although I should have thought and searched for tightness too! So thanks for pointing me in the right direction. Maybe sometime in the Future there's also a German Festool Owners Group Forum.

Back to the original problem:

Over time I've switched most of my tools to Festool and it has made things usually more accurate, better and easier. The Domino is the first tool that obviously has a well known 5 mm design issue and I can't quite understand why this problem hasn't been eliminated by simply shrinking the 5 mm Domino or increasing the bit size. Maybe Festool already did and I got an old batch of Dominos, at least the order no 493296 is still the same.

I am not a professional, but it's quite awkward especially for professionals to put their Dominos in the microwave or sand each Domino before using them. Even with my little private usage of Dominos that would be pretty time consuming. Although I really like to see a video of someone planing the 5 mm Domino.  

I am still not 100 % certain my problem is the usual tightness issue (work shop is at 50% humidity) others had, (are my Domino measurements in the normal range) because even with glue there's no way without force of a hammer or strong clamps to join the work pieces together or even insert the Domino into the mortise, but even if it is, it doesn't seem like an issue Festool would expect their customers to just deal with.

It's worth talking to the Festool Support tomorrow and see what I can find out without getting "Lost in Translation".

 

[Brice Burrell]

Festoller, tight fitting Domino tenons are normal. I remember a Festool promotional video for the Domino where you can see the presenter using a hammer to force the assembled pieces together. I really do think what you have described is normal. I'm not trying to discourage you from calling Festool, they may be able to offer some help.

As for the proper technique for mortising. The first mating mortises on each piece should use the tightest mortise setting, then the subsequent mortises should be cut with a wider width setting. That offers for additional room for error making the piece fit together more easily. 

 

[Rob-GB]

Festoller, as an Englishman who has has lived and worked in other countries (Greece and Germany to name two) I know what it is like to try to communicate clearly in a language that is not my own. I once got "mischling" and "mischung" confused while ordering some bread rolls [embarassed]. Thankfully, the young lady who was serving me corrected me while ignoring the laughter from the customers behind me.  [big grin]
Rob.

 

[MarkF]

One thing to consider is the expectation for a tenon vs a biscuit.  I expect a tenon to attach and support a joint as a primary function.  I expect a biscuit to allign an edge glue joint as a primary function.  The Domino tenons are tight fit by design, a biscuit is not.  

I normally machine one Domino mortise on the tightest setting and the mating mortice on the widest setting.  Glue the Domino tenon into the tight mortise and dry fit the piece.  If the mortise is where I want it, I pull the piece apart, apply glue to the empty mortise and whack/clamp it together.  If it is not correct, saw the protruding Domino tenon with a flush cut hand saw, glue the offcut into the empty mortise and repeat the process in the proper location.  Once you use the machine for a while the errors will decrease.  The nice thing with the Domino is you can make mistakes and correct them without much drama.