Lets keep this in the Cabinet and or built in department only. So I was contemplating this question while in my "office" and looking at my cabinets and sinks in there. So those of you who use the Domino and or Kreg Jig (have to own both....that is the criteria in this question!!!!!!) At what point do you switch from Domino's to Kreg jig? I guess looking at my own bathroom I would use Domino's because of the smaller quantites I would use. And if it were a bigger job I would switch to pocket holes. So those of you that have both how do you determine to switch over to the other option in building the box and to the face frames?
Domino vs. Kreg Jig (kitchen cabinets & built-ins only)
- Thread starter dinkjs
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You use the domino for where you might otherwise you tradition mortise and tenon joints. LIke furniture or anything that will be subject to stresses and racking.
You use the kreg jig for things like assembling the cabinet face frames. They will never take must stress once attached. In fact, you can attach them to the carcases with pocket screws too. I even know people that swear by using pocket screws for drawer construction. You can also use pocket screws to assemble the cabinet carcase so long as they won't be visible.
You use the kreg jig for things like assembling the cabinet face frames. They will never take must stress once attached. In fact, you can attach them to the carcases with pocket screws too. I even know people that swear by using pocket screws for drawer construction. You can also use pocket screws to assemble the cabinet carcase so long as they won't be visible.
ccarrolladams
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dinkjs said:
Although at times during my long career I made more money from my other business enterprises, since 1949 I have always approached cabinet making as a business. In the old-pre Domino Era, I used the Kreg pocket screw system to the extent in my previous shop in Pasadena I had a full-on electro-pneumatic Kreg production machine.
However, even before I bought my first Festool I found that my clients would not accept pocket screw joinery. So, I sold my last Kreg equipment and have never regretted doing so for a second.
We do use Dominoes where to us it makes sense and is also within spec for a job. All of my cabinet makers know how to use Dominoes efficiently. All of can use Dominoes to make drawer boxes. We all also know how to as effectively make dovetail drawers, which with our clients is a far easier sell. Given the modern glues we use I am sure the wood will fail elsewhere but I make what the client wants and pays for.
Of course the advantage to the builder is with pocket screws you do not need dozens of cabinet clamps or several electro-pneumatic cabinet case clamps. Once your volume increases enough to justify those machines then you see a savings without the cost of the pocket screws.
Same goes for assembling cabinet doors. To a certain extent it is possible to insert plugs to hide the pocket screws, which works better when the doors are painted. Clients buy from us when they want custom cabinets with exotic veneer. Certain kinds of doors and drawer fronts can be made neatly using hidden Dominoes. Others call for cope and stick profile routing. Either way we will be using electro-pneumatic Doucet door assembly machines.
So, maybe there still is a place for Kreg pocket screws? Not in my business, but as we say, your mileage might vary.
builderbob
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I am an avid user of both pocket screws and the domino.
I have been using the Kreg system for many years. I know there's always the debate of pocket screws where pocket screws belong on a level of craftsmanship. I build a fair amount of built ins out of a 2 car garage (converted to a shop). I use pocket hole joinery wherever necessary or wherever a joint will not be seen. I make face frames with pocket holes and I join them to the carcass also with pocket holes...as long as they won't be exposed. This allows me to quickly make joints and connections with out the need to clamp, so I can move on to other tasks. I also use pocket holes on the fly when I'm doing field work on cabinet installations.
I do use the domino quite a bit. I just built some shaker style doors with an applied molding for a set of built in cabinets, I attach face frames to carcasses when I am unable to use pocket holes, I have made drawers where dovetails are not requested and I use it for general surface alignment.
I think that each tool has its place and I am happy and thankful to have both.
Bob
I have been using the Kreg system for many years. I know there's always the debate of pocket screws where pocket screws belong on a level of craftsmanship. I build a fair amount of built ins out of a 2 car garage (converted to a shop). I use pocket hole joinery wherever necessary or wherever a joint will not be seen. I make face frames with pocket holes and I join them to the carcass also with pocket holes...as long as they won't be exposed. This allows me to quickly make joints and connections with out the need to clamp, so I can move on to other tasks. I also use pocket holes on the fly when I'm doing field work on cabinet installations.
I do use the domino quite a bit. I just built some shaker style doors with an applied molding for a set of built in cabinets, I attach face frames to carcasses when I am unable to use pocket holes, I have made drawers where dovetails are not requested and I use it for general surface alignment.
I think that each tool has its place and I am happy and thankful to have both.
Bob
I'm pretty sure if you research it you will find that Pocket Screw joinery is just as strong or stronger than Domino joinery with sheetgood cabinets. I normally use both in the same work piece. Dominos for aligning the pieces and Pocket Screws for their clamping properties. Much quicker and cheaper than dealing with long clamps.
ccarrolladams
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MarkF said:
Kreg has paid for numerous studies backing your beliefs about pocket screws. Of course that was long before Festool invented the Domino system.
I have no way of disputing those claims. My point is that my clients will not accept pocket screw joints, I am still using some cabinet clamps I purchased before 1950. My newer ones date from 2009, so on a clamp cost per cabinet we are talking a couple of cents. Sure if I were starting all over and needed that many Bessey cabinet masters it would be a major investment. Of course most of the time we use my powered case clamps which only need a few minutes of pressure. Routinely each of those systems can handle 6-8 cases an hour. Our cabinet cases tend to be more complicated than industry average, but we have 4 of those machines. With four good cabinet makers doing the assembly we can make an entire large kitchen/pantry job in 4 hours. After that there will be some sanding and installation of edging or face frames and drawer slides. Our goal is to make the entire set in not more than a shift and a half. The design is already input to the CNC machines, the drawers were bought or we built them in advance, as we built the drawer fronts and cabinet doors. With seven of us working as a team it goes fairly fast. We've had a lot of practice.
Ted Miller
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No more rabbets, grooves or dadoes on any carcasses for me. The Domino makes it super fast and the alignment aspect is what I like the most.
But Kreg has its place, just depends on what I job I am doing at that moment.
Forgot, no more dovetails on drawers either, I use dominos but make them from a different wood so you can see them. If the client wants DTs then so be it...
But Kreg has its place, just depends on what I job I am doing at that moment.
Forgot, no more dovetails on drawers either, I use dominos but make them from a different wood so you can see them. If the client wants DTs then so be it...
Ted Miller said:
Could you describe how you use Dominoes when constructing a drawer? Do you put the front and rear between the sides or at the ends of the sides? Do the Dominoes show through the sides or front/rear? Or are the Dominoes completely encased and hidden? Do you put a false front onto the drawer box or is the front part of the drawer box?
RussellS said:
I'm not Ted but there have been a bunch of Domino Drawer threads in the past 5 years.
I make mine by rabbeting the false front and rear of the drawer the thickness of the side, clamp the sides in place and cut the mortises into the side and front/back at the same time. If you leave the Domino a little proud you can peen the end of it to fill any chipout on the side. Flush cut the Domino and attach an overlay front.
BTW last time I looked, Woodcraft had different sizes of Walnut knockoff Dominos in their clearance page. They look nice in a Maple side.
ccarrolladams
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The strain on a drawer comes from pulling the front of the box away from the rest of the drawer.
Consequently when using Dominoes, the sides are the full depth of the drawer and the front and back of the box fit between then.
This was the "through" Dominoes show at the sides in front, much like conventional dovetails.
Where it gets confusing is distinguishing the "front of the (drawer) box from the decorative Door Front. Normally we talk about: drawer width, from side to side; drawer depth from front to back; drawer height, from top to bottom. With the finished drawer box that is fairly easy. But, dealing with the pieces before machining and assembly we tend to say "length and width"
Consequently when using Dominoes, the sides are the full depth of the drawer and the front and back of the box fit between then.
This was the "through" Dominoes show at the sides in front, much like conventional dovetails.
Where it gets confusing is distinguishing the "front of the (drawer) box from the decorative Door Front. Normally we talk about: drawer width, from side to side; drawer depth from front to back; drawer height, from top to bottom. With the finished drawer box that is fairly easy. But, dealing with the pieces before machining and assembly we tend to say "length and width"
The question comes up... a few for your house or thousands as a cabinet shop.
If I was just building Cabinets in a controlled shop with space and clamps for high end.... Domino. For a bit lower level Domino and Kreg to hold as clamp.
Have to work on cabinets on site...Both Kreg and Domino....depends on what is needed.
Having to fix issues, on site... Kreg mainly but maybe a Domino depends on what is needed.
Cheers,
Steve
If I was just building Cabinets in a controlled shop with space and clamps for high end.... Domino. For a bit lower level Domino and Kreg to hold as clamp.
Have to work on cabinets on site...Both Kreg and Domino....depends on what is needed.
Having to fix issues, on site... Kreg mainly but maybe a Domino depends on what is needed.
Cheers,
Steve
John Stevens
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ccarrolladams said:
...thereby saving not only the cost of the pocket screws, but also a portion of the labor cost of boring the holes and driving the screws, I'd guess.
Regards,
John
ccarrolladams
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The goal of my firm is to make the best quality cabinets practical to satisfy sophisticated designers are demanding end customers.
Perhaps we do save time using modern equipment. I certainly hope the labor and frustration saved justifies the cost. Over many years I felt that I could create marvelous cabinets using "Pony and pipe" clamps and then things went even better with I-bar cabinet master style clamps. The powered case clams ensure that everything intended to be at right angles stays that way. Obviously not all cabinets have all faces at right angles, so we use other clamping methods, and we cut those plywood parts using guide rails and TS55.
When we estimate and quote jobs we assume our equipment will save time without compromising quality. However, unless all of us are working as a team and have lots of cabinet/woodworking experience, we cannot expect any machine to do things on its own. Every part of the instructions needs to be programmed. But when we have proven a set of instructions and are only changing a few dimensions, the quality is great and it can be breathtaking seeing the productivity.
As I say, a CNC pressure beam saw is like Festool guide rails and an upside down TS55 on steroids. The pressure beams touch the on and off-cut side of the kerf top and bottom, leaving a tiny fraction of a mm clear. The machine has been fed the s/n of every blade, so it knows the exact kerf to about 0.01mm. We can and do program the amount of pressure, but that really helps prevent tear-out. The scoring unit is also part of ensuring glue-ready cuts.
In 1938 my Apaw kept telling me to "let the saw do the work" so I wish he could be with me seeing a bean saw of CNC nested router in action.
Perhaps we do save time using modern equipment. I certainly hope the labor and frustration saved justifies the cost. Over many years I felt that I could create marvelous cabinets using "Pony and pipe" clamps and then things went even better with I-bar cabinet master style clamps. The powered case clams ensure that everything intended to be at right angles stays that way. Obviously not all cabinets have all faces at right angles, so we use other clamping methods, and we cut those plywood parts using guide rails and TS55.
When we estimate and quote jobs we assume our equipment will save time without compromising quality. However, unless all of us are working as a team and have lots of cabinet/woodworking experience, we cannot expect any machine to do things on its own. Every part of the instructions needs to be programmed. But when we have proven a set of instructions and are only changing a few dimensions, the quality is great and it can be breathtaking seeing the productivity.
As I say, a CNC pressure beam saw is like Festool guide rails and an upside down TS55 on steroids. The pressure beams touch the on and off-cut side of the kerf top and bottom, leaving a tiny fraction of a mm clear. The machine has been fed the s/n of every blade, so it knows the exact kerf to about 0.01mm. We can and do program the amount of pressure, but that really helps prevent tear-out. The scoring unit is also part of ensuring glue-ready cuts.
In 1938 my Apaw kept telling me to "let the saw do the work" so I wish he could be with me seeing a bean saw of CNC nested router in action.
Kevin Stricker
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I like to use both, often on the same job. On paint grade built-ins I may plug some pocket screws on the bottom of fixed shelves, but generally do not have any visible. In MDF I don't bother with pocket screws, they are unpredictable. On base cabinets I use them for the top stretchers and nailers and domino the bottoms, dado the back. On uppers just a couple dominos per joint with face screws where possible. Pocket screws for face frames. Dominos or drawer lock joinery for drawers.
In my mind it is not usually a one or the other, to me they serve different purposes. Dominos for me are more of a replacement for a rabbit or dado, they add strength and glue surface but the primary purpose is alignment. Pocket screws add strength and replace face screws and act as clamps. For big complicated built-ins pocket screws can be really handy especially when doing solo glue ups.
In my mind it is not usually a one or the other, to me they serve different purposes. Dominos for me are more of a replacement for a rabbit or dado, they add strength and glue surface but the primary purpose is alignment. Pocket screws add strength and replace face screws and act as clamps. For big complicated built-ins pocket screws can be really handy especially when doing solo glue ups.
Ted Miller
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RussellS said:
Hey Russell, As carrol pointed out the dominos are used as "through dominos". I make the sides long to cover the back and front of the drawer panel. I plunge the dominos deep enough so they are flush with the sides of the drawer panel. Most of the time I use prefinished ply for drawer construction, so I do not want to have to sand the domino flush. Then of course your drawer fronts are applied the drawer. I have yet to hear of any of my drawers come apart with this construction.
When I first got the domino about 6-7 years ago, I made some very heavy 3/4" ply x 24" long x 10" deep drawers to hold all of my cabinet hardware, also a drawer with 12 routers in it under my router table. These drawers take a serious beating and are opened time and time again with only dominos and glue for construction. No problems as of yet. But then again pva glues weld wood together...
