Domino XL?

[Neathawk Designs]

I'm being hired to build some large barn doors (12' tall x 6' wide - two doors).  We haven't worked out the details, but I imagine it will be made of 2x hardwood material (maybe 2x6's?).  Would you recommend the domino XL for this?  Or can I get away with the 500 that I have?  Or is there a better way to join the boards?  Any other suggestions for a project like this?  What size dominos?  I'm also wondering what in the world do I use for hinges? 

It just occurred to me that perhaps using my 8ft track connected to the 55" would allow me to clean up the edges and prep for gluing... Of should I use my jointer?

Thanks!
Ryan

 

[Neathawk Designs]

It also just occurred to me that I don't have 6' wide clamps.... Any thoughts on that? 

 

[tjbnwi]

Stops and wedges.

Build an open frame slightly wider than your door frame. Set one side of the door against one side of the frame, use wedges driven between the two frames to tighten the door frame.

Tom

 

[Ajax]

I would advise against gluing up such a massive door.  Beyond the logistical issues with clamping, you will have potentially large wood expansion issues.  I recall one woodworking book where the author talked about residing a barn.  He chose to fasten the boards with two screws across each board width and the old farmer laughed at him.  The farmer said he might as well come back in the spring to redo it all.  The point being, allow for wood expansion and use only one faster across the board width.  Also put a gap between the boards.

 

[jacko9]

Yes, no doubt the DF700 will give you more secure strong joints.

Jack

 

[Neathawk Designs]

This is the photo that the customer sent me.... Its a pretty bad picture, but the joints appear to be tight.  I can leave a decent gap in the middle for expansion, but I see your point... It could move quite a bit.

 

[Ajax]

It looks like the outer frame holds the shape.  The wood won't expand much there.  You could use the 700 to M&T those joints.  The boards inside the frame are probably allowed to expand a little in how they are attached to the frame.  Think of the door being just a large version of the frame and panel build technique where  the center panel  is allowed to float or expand.

 

[Neathawk Designs]

I checked out the website shown on the photo.... Gorgeous doors On their site... This one is actually T&G in the middle... I could rout it out and leave room for expansion.... Similar to a raised panel cabinet door.  I think they sell the hinges too... Which is nice.  I imagine that finish and wood selection will make a difference in minimizing expansion.  They want maple, but I've never used it in this capacity... Is hard maple stable enough for this?

 

[Wonderwino]

I made 17' clamps with 3/4" pipe clamps for a bar that had to have clamping pressure through the length.  I joined several threaded lengths of pipe together with threaded connectors.  They worked great!

 

[Kev]

Is there a potential for a track (either top or bottom) to follow the arc of the door openings?

Having support for the frame of the door on both sides males and obvious major difference to the stresses involved.

Hinges? BIG

 

[kmdwoodwork]

Like others have stated the domino xl will work great for this door.

Is there a reason they want maple? I have made a few barn doors and i used pine or cedar with the biggest being 8 1/2' x 8 1/2'  from pine and it was really heavy. If you go with maple you will probably need a fork lift to pick it up.

I would use t&g for the panel no matter what material you chose and make sure you have a way for water to drain out at the bottom of the t&g.

If you can use sliding hardware instead of hinges it will make the job easier and less stressful.

Good luck, it looks like it will be a fun job.

 

[Neathawk Designs]

I like the cedar Idea and appreciate the water drainage pointer.  They specifically wanted something heavy.  Its a barn that is being remodeled for weddings and gatherings.  I'd prefer cedar or something that is naturally resistant to decay.  I've never used maple for an outdoor project.

As for the domino XL.... I will be getting it soon.  If I'm working with 1 1/2" material, what size tennons should I use?  I was thinking of getting one of the assortments that comes with the systainer.  I'm guessing it would be the larger assortment (with 14mm tennons), but I'd like to Get your input.  Thanks.

 

[tbellemare]

Though Sipo isn't inexpensive, it isn't nearly as expensive as some similarly performing alternatives. It is also renewable.

It may be something to consider?

Tom

 

[bkharman]

I like the cedar Idea and appreciate the water drainage pointer.  They specifically wanted something heavy.  Its a barn that is being remodeled for weddings and gatherings.   I'd prefer cedar or something that is naturally resistant to decay.  I've never used maple for an outdoor project.

As for the domino XL.... I will be getting it soon.  If I'm working with 1 1/2" material, what size tennons should I use?  I was thinking of getting one of the assortments that comes with the systainer.  I'm guessing it would be the larger assortment (with 14mm tennons), but I'd like to Get your input.  Thanks.

14mm would be ideal. You are looking at 38mm of wood depth and the rule of thirds would put you squarely at 12 but we are talking about some serious planks of wood here. I would go with 14mm sipo and probably the 100mm lengths. You want all of that glue surface you can get. If you are using "2x8" sizing on these rails and stiles, you will want at least 2-3 dominoes in each joint.

I look forward to seeing the progress here.

Good luck!  Bryan.

 

[kmdwoodwork]

I like the cedar Idea and appreciate the water drainage pointer.  They specifically wanted something heavy.  Its a barn that is being remodeled for weddings and gatherings.   I'd prefer cedar or something that is naturally resistant to decay.  I've never used maple for an outdoor project.

As for the domino XL.... I will be getting it soon.  If I'm working with 1 1/2" material, what size tennons should I use?  I was thinking of getting one of the assortments that comes with the systainer.  I'm guessing it would be the larger assortment (with 14mm tennons), but I'd like to Get your input.  Thanks.

I have never tried maple for exterior projects either and i am not sure i would want to. I used a lumber weight calculator to ballpark the weight and for western red cedar it is about 190lbs and maple is about 280lbs, i think the cedar will be heavy enough.

The xl came with a 12mm bit so i just added the 14mm bit and bought the 750mm sipo and cut them to the length i need, i did this because you can use the boxes that come in the systainer for the dominos and the bits fit in the systainer also. I have the 500 also so i have not found the need for the 8 and 10mm dominos for the xl yet.

I would use the 14mm x 140mm and if you are using 2x6 use a couple per joint.

 

[jacko9]

I noticed that the door shown in the picture is hanging from a track with some heavy duty hardware.  Have you been contracted to build the doors or to do the entire install?

If so, check out the hardware on the web site at the bottom of the pictures.  Hinges for a door that large seem to be impractical and the stresses on the joints for a hinged door have got to be pretty large.

There is soft maple which might be available in your area, is that what they we're talking about?

Jack

 

[Neathawk Designs]

I am meeting with the customer tomorrow to clarify some things. 

I should have mentioned that this is Kick starter project.  You can watch a video about it here : https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cricketcreekfarm/stone-barn-and-solar-power-to-sustain-cricket-cree?ref=home_location.  They raised quite a bit of cash for this project. 

I am going to lean in the direction of Cedar.  They definitely want the door on hinges.

I am leaning toward the 14mm sipo and bits.... It will save me a bit of cash (but I like the systainer). 

In the photo above, I was thinking that each section of T&G should be its own panel... Does this make sense?  There would be 4 triangular panels in this case.  There is a slight possibility of incorporating circles into this as well.  I will find out more tomorrow.

 

[Daver]

They definitely want the door on hinges.  

In the photo above, I was thinking that each section of T&G should be its own panel... Does this make sense?  There would be 4 triangular panels in this case.  There is a slight possibility of incorporating circles into this as well.  I will find out more tomorrow.

Hinges can work- they just have to be engineered/sized properly. Having said that, there's a reason why so many barn doors are sliders and I'm inclined to agree with posters here that a slider is a good way to go in this case.
If they absolutely have to have hinges, it's ESSENTIAL that both of the diagonal braces on the door frame start with the high end on the latch side (latch stile) and finish with the low end on the hinge side (hinge stile) of each door. The diagonal braces keep the door from sagging.

The top, middle, and bottom rail, the braces, and the hinge and latch stile are your structure.
The panel's primary purpose is as a barrier between the inside and outside and its structural function is secondary to that.
You'll want the panels attached to the backside (inside) of your structural frame. Therefore, you could build a top and a bottom or just one large panel. Either way it will be square or rectangular and not the triangular shape you're mentioning.
Take a look at 'breadboard ends' on google and think about that as a top and a bottom for your panel, affixed to the back of your frame.
You could T&G the panel planks and then T&G their ends where they meet the breadboard ends.
If you fasten the center plank of your panel at the top bottom and middle and then fasten the outer two planks with slots rather than holes, you can let the rest of the panel float. The planks are tongue and grooved to each other and then their tongues are let into the breadboard ends' grooves. At this point you've done quite a lot to prepare for seasonal movement in the panel.
This isn't the only way to do it but it will give you some ideas. Best of luck on the meeting tomorrow!

Dave 8)

 

[Wonderwino]

Another problem to consider with hinged, 6' wide doors, is the arc they will swing when opening.  The floor must be flat or lower throughout the swing or the doors will snag.  This can be aggravated further over time if the doors do start to sag.  1.25 degrees of sag will drop the outboard end of the door 1 inch.

 

[Neathawk Designs]

About the sag, I keep thinking about welding a frame and welding the hinges to the frame to set the door in.  I'm not sure if its a good idea, but it keeps crossing my mind.  I appreciate all the help here too! 

Daver- do you think its a bad idea to make smaller triangular panels that sit in the door frame similar to a cabinet door (or any wood door for that matter)?  My thought was that it would reduce the panel sizes, which would reduce the amount of wood that can shrink or expand.  I've never done this to this scale so I'm just not sure.