Wonderwino
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- Joined
- Apr 5, 2008
- Messages
- 800
Looks like a nice job! I've used Dominos as cross dowels to screw in to with MDF. It sure makes a secure joint easy!
Double Dutch Garage Door Project
- Thread starter BarryL
- Start date
Thanks guys for the comments...Dave I think you will be able to see the glow from the smile on my face a couple of hours away when the fort doors are done!
I would like to post a few better pictures of the finished framing to show the measures taken to prevent any sagging and will do so when I pull down the foam board that is protecting me from the elements right now. This will come down when I am ready to finally install the jamb and hang these heavy doors.
After carefully measuring and marking the panel, I begin cutting the 5/8" MDF to form the inside and outside of the 2 x 4 framework for each of four doors. I always make sure to only use one tape measure. I use a 5mm pencil to carefully mark my line and use incra measuring tools to finish my lines I mark for the Festool guide rail to line up with. I know this is very elementary for all here but using these to measure and mark helps keep the panel square.
Incidentally, I previosly worked out all my dimensions using Sketchup. I cannot stress it enough how valuable this program is for any project really but for me, one this large, it helps me work out problems before I begin cutting. It outputs nicely to a program called "Cutlist" as well so that in all your planning stages, and when you get good with the combination of these programs, you can eliminate a lot of clutter in your mind, freeing you up to concentrate on tasks at hand.
I use these for marking or as a square to extend tape measured marks.
Might I mention that THIS blade does not play well with the Hardi-Panel (yes Dave, cement board). I think this blade is shot but I may buy one of thos HF sharpening systems that has been mentioned here. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=96687
I would like to post a few better pictures of the finished framing to show the measures taken to prevent any sagging and will do so when I pull down the foam board that is protecting me from the elements right now. This will come down when I am ready to finally install the jamb and hang these heavy doors.
After carefully measuring and marking the panel, I begin cutting the 5/8" MDF to form the inside and outside of the 2 x 4 framework for each of four doors. I always make sure to only use one tape measure. I use a 5mm pencil to carefully mark my line and use incra measuring tools to finish my lines I mark for the Festool guide rail to line up with. I know this is very elementary for all here but using these to measure and mark helps keep the panel square.
Incidentally, I previosly worked out all my dimensions using Sketchup. I cannot stress it enough how valuable this program is for any project really but for me, one this large, it helps me work out problems before I begin cutting. It outputs nicely to a program called "Cutlist" as well so that in all your planning stages, and when you get good with the combination of these programs, you can eliminate a lot of clutter in your mind, freeing you up to concentrate on tasks at hand.
I use these for marking or as a square to extend tape measured marks.
Might I mention that THIS blade does not play well with the Hardi-Panel (yes Dave, cement board). I think this blade is shot but I may buy one of thos HF sharpening systems that has been mentioned here. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=96687
Jointing one edge and one face
With the jointed edge against the fence, I cut the 2 x 4s to final width of 3.25"
Planing the 2 x 4s to final thickness of 1.25"
The boards test fitted on a panel.
The boards will be joined with the Domino joiner. There will be a second "2 x 4" layer on top of this. The void space will be filled with 2.5" of "fitted" foam board. The addition of the second layer also serves the purpose of being able to offset one edge of the bottom doors and both top and bottom edges of the top doors, so the the "kerf in" weather stripping can be applied.
One problem I ran into was cutting these 2 x 4s and going through the effort to dimension them, and then not getting them stapled and glued to the MDF panels right away. The dimensions will change fast!
Test fitting of two layers. You can see that the two layers essentially form a half lap joint when they will be glued and screwed together. A kerf will be cut into the resulting rabbet of the two joined layers. the weatherstripping will fit in the kerf.
The first layer is glued and stapled to the panel. The kerf is cut into the top board of the bottom doors. When the mating end of the top doors close, this will provide a tight fit where the two opposing weatherstrips meet. This should keep the air out!
Weatherstrip inserted in kerf. Another lessen I learned...Put the weatherstripping in that kerf RIGHT AWAY!. It will close up. You think I would have learned that after watching the boards move all over the place after I dimensioned then and left them sit overnight!
Another oversight (boo boo)....If you look at the weatherstrip in the previous photo, if I did the same thing to the bottom of the top doors, they would not close. There is no relief for the opposing weatherstripping to meet. I probably would have rabbeted that relief evenly on the opposing boards but can't now so I just relieved it on the top door. That worked out alright.
The bottom board of the top door relief plan.
Here is a door ready to have foam board inserted and the top layer glued and stapled. I will also use a flush trim bit with a bearing to flush the panel edge to the 2 x 4 frame. The interior paneling and outside Hardi-Panel will then be glued and brad nailed to the MDF.
This tool was invaluable in drilling holes and driving screws quickly when securing the two layers of 2 x 4 framework together. The centrotec chuck is great!
This tool was invaluable in drilling holes and driving screws quickly when securing the two layers of 2 x 4 framework together. The centrotec chuck is great!
Here is a top door ready to receive framework for double layer plexiglass window that will be installed.
Here I am quickly set up for assembly of the window frame with a CMT pocket hole jig mounted to a piece of plywood. I can quickly clamp this to my MFT and go right to work on drilling. The C12 with the interchangeable chucks is again my go to tool for this operation.
The 2 x 4s for the window framework have been milled and cut. Notice they are turned on their side and cut to final height of 2.5" to match the sandwhich layer height of the door framework. The pocket holes have been drilled. The clamping elements and the hold downs make easy work of securing the window frame for driving the pocket screws. I have used story sticks cut to proper length to make the frame square and ready to accept the plexiglass windows which will be installed later.
Here is a finished frame for the window.
The frame is now secured to the door frame with screws and contruction adhesive is applied to all mating surfaces. I have offset this window a little to the top of the upper door as I am 6'5 and want to be able to easily look out.
Getting ready to flush trim the window opening.
One side cut out
Other side clamped and then cut out. Ready for insertion of foam board and assembly.
The Hardi Panel that will cover the outside of these doors is next to rediculous to cut! I used a flush trim bit on one panel to flush trim the edges and ruined that bit. The thought of trying that to cut out the window openings with a flush trim bit like I did with the MDF had me perplexed. With that I started looking around for a bit that I could use in the router that would be stout enough to do the job.
I found this bit. It is a 1/4 roto-zip bit. Looks medieval eh?
Since this was not a bearing guided bit I had to use other measures to cut the window out. When I had only one MDF window panel cut and secured to the framework, I clamped a Hardi board panel to the door, then turned it over and traced out the window. Then it was a simple matter of using the guide rail and the OF 1400. I used a square and measured 2 inched from the line and made sure it was the same distance from one end of the cut to the other. The guide stop fine adjustment can then be used to drive this beastly bit right up to the line.
Setting up for the cut.
Sliding an FS clamp under the guide rail and using an existing door for support for the cut.
After rotating and clamping the panel down four times, the window was finall cut out. Even though this bit turned out to be the ticket, I still had to take several shallow passes at this to cut this cement board. Wow is it tough. I do recommend this bit if you ever need to cut any cement board.
I found this bit. It is a 1/4 roto-zip bit. Looks medieval eh?
Since this was not a bearing guided bit I had to use other measures to cut the window out. When I had only one MDF window panel cut and secured to the framework, I clamped a Hardi board panel to the door, then turned it over and traced out the window. Then it was a simple matter of using the guide rail and the OF 1400. I used a square and measured 2 inched from the line and made sure it was the same distance from one end of the cut to the other. The guide stop fine adjustment can then be used to drive this beastly bit right up to the line.
Setting up for the cut.
Sliding an FS clamp under the guide rail and using an existing door for support for the cut.
After rotating and clamping the panel down four times, the window was finall cut out. Even though this bit turned out to be the ticket, I still had to take several shallow passes at this to cut this cement board. Wow is it tough. I do recommend this bit if you ever need to cut any cement board.
Dave Ronyak
Member
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2007
- Messages
- 2,234
Barry, thanks for the tip regarding the RotoZip bit. They offer several different bits. Which one is this "medieval" one? Is it solid carbide or HSS?
I think I may have one of those for use with my high speed die grinder. (This grinder was originally purchased to make my Corvette engine more powerful, but proven to be one of the most versatile tools I have ever owned.)
What is your estimate of weight of one of the dutch doors you are making?
Dave R.
I think I may have one of those for use with my high speed die grinder. (This grinder was originally purchased to make my Corvette engine more powerful, but proven to be one of the most versatile tools I have ever owned.)
What is your estimate of weight of one of the dutch doors you are making?
Dave R.
Dave
The bit is a Duracut DC-1 carbide bit for cutting cement board. I was so impressed with it...I went out and bought another....just in case you know
I still have not weighed one of the doors yet but I am guessing that each quadrant will weigh from 80 to 100 lbs each. I am putting three 4.5 inch ball bearing butt hinges on each quadrant. I am hoping (praying) that this will be what the doctor ordered.
The bit is a Duracut DC-1 carbide bit for cutting cement board. I was so impressed with it...I went out and bought another....just in case you know
I still have not weighed one of the doors yet but I am guessing that each quadrant will weigh from 80 to 100 lbs each. I am putting three 4.5 inch ball bearing butt hinges on each quadrant. I am hoping (praying) that this will be what the doctor ordered.
Dave Ronyak
Member
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2007
- Messages
- 2,234
That number and size of hinges should be more than enough. I have a very old set of oak frame French doors, each filled with heavy beveled glass from top to botom (nine lights). Each passage sized door is supported by three 4 1/2 inch steel hinges, and was long before I came to be their owner. No problems with the hinges.
Dave R.
Dave R.
Barry,
That should be more than enough hinges. I've been looking at hinges for a bookshelf closet door I'm working on and found standard (non-ball bearing) hinges at Lowes that will support 165 lbs w/ three 4" hinges. They had them in both brass plated steel and stainless steel.
Fred
That should be more than enough hinges. I've been looking at hinges for a bookshelf closet door I'm working on and found standard (non-ball bearing) hinges at Lowes that will support 165 lbs w/ three 4" hinges. They had them in both brass plated steel and stainless steel.
Fred
Hi Fred
Thanks as well for the reassurance. Yeah, I got these hinges at Home Depot...they were only about 7 bucks each. I liked that price as I already have quite a bit wrapped up in this project. I didn't want to wrap up four or five hundred on just hinges!
Thanks as well for the reassurance. Yeah, I got these hinges at Home Depot...they were only about 7 bucks each. I liked that price as I already have quite a bit wrapped up in this project. I didn't want to wrap up four or five hundred on just hinges!
I chose a nice looking paneling for the inside skin of the doors and the cutting was pretty straight forward.
Guide rail on tape measured marks;ready for cutting.
Clamped in place and ready to flush trim the window cut riding the bearing along the inside of the window frame.
Using a forstner bit to cut a hole to provide entry for the flush trim bit.
Window is cut out. These doors should look really nice viewed from either side but I am really anxious to see how they look from the inside once they are hung and all trimmed out.
They will be warm and cozy as well. I used two layers of the foam board to come up with the proper thickness. There is a 1.5" pink board under this 1" blue board.
Guide rail on tape measured marks;ready for cutting.
Clamped in place and ready to flush trim the window cut riding the bearing along the inside of the window frame.
Using a forstner bit to cut a hole to provide entry for the flush trim bit.
Window is cut out. These doors should look really nice viewed from either side but I am really anxious to see how they look from the inside once they are hung and all trimmed out.
They will be warm and cozy as well. I used two layers of the foam board to come up with the proper thickness. There is a 1.5" pink board under this 1" blue board.
Dave Ronyak
Member
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2007
- Messages
- 2,234
Barry,
The construction of the gates of Fort Londrigan appears to be going well. Those are the most substantial doors I have ever seen, excepting maybe those of oak on Summit County Courthouse and some European cathedrals and castles. Great documentation, especially your photos. Keep it coming.
Dave R.
The construction of the gates of Fort Londrigan appears to be going well. Those are the most substantial doors I have ever seen, excepting maybe those of oak on Summit County Courthouse and some European cathedrals and castles. Great documentation, especially your photos. Keep it coming.
Dave R.
Thanks for those kind words Dave. That means something coming from someone who has set the bar for documenting a build as far as I am concerned!
As mentioned earlier, there would be a need to be concerned about these heavy doors sagging both from the jamb side and the integrity of the doors themselves. I have marked out the hinges on each of the individul doors. This will be transferred onto the jambs at a later point. For now, you can see that the upper screws will bore right between where the MDF panel meets the door frames raising the concern that the doors might sag even further. I used the Domino machine to bore some domino holes inline and perpendicular to the path of the upper screws. This should give the screws something solid to bite into. I used the largest domino and set to the deepest depth. They were then trimmed with a japenese hand saw.
Trimming the dominos flush to the MD----uh...OSB..I just realized I have been calling that MDF...oops.
What's going on here?? Someone forgot to fill the door with foam board before boring the dominos. Luckily I recognized that I did this before the glue was dry and a flat pry bar made short work of prying the OSB panel back off.
There...that's better...really I was just using those dominos as registration pins...sure.
As mentioned earlier, there would be a need to be concerned about these heavy doors sagging both from the jamb side and the integrity of the doors themselves. I have marked out the hinges on each of the individul doors. This will be transferred onto the jambs at a later point. For now, you can see that the upper screws will bore right between where the MDF panel meets the door frames raising the concern that the doors might sag even further. I used the Domino machine to bore some domino holes inline and perpendicular to the path of the upper screws. This should give the screws something solid to bite into. I used the largest domino and set to the deepest depth. They were then trimmed with a japenese hand saw.
Trimming the dominos flush to the MD----uh...OSB..I just realized I have been calling that MDF...oops.
What's going on here?? Someone forgot to fill the door with foam board before boring the dominos. Luckily I recognized that I did this before the glue was dry and a flat pry bar made short work of prying the OSB panel back off.
There...that's better...really I was just using those dominos as registration pins...sure.
I had to do some rearranging of the big iron in the shop to accommodate milling of the long and thick oak jambs. Since I was doing this solo, I had to have the jambs supported at both infeed and outfeed of the tablesaw. The jointer and planer were a little easier handling.
Jointer ready for action. One edge and face are jointed square and then on to my 13" Shop Fox planer.
I had to use my MFT with some added items to get the right height for support of the long boards.
A simple roller stand set to the right height catches the long oak boards
The top jamb board I am using is curved like letter "c"! It just gave me a reason to justify the 300.00 cost of the 2700 rail purchased earlier in the project.
I set the rail as close to the edge as possible in the center of the curved board. I made measurements and found that I will still be able to get my final width of 5.5" after I make the final cut on the tablesaw.
The depth of the TS55 was set to max depth of cut. You can see that I juuuuust made it on this cut with the little bit of shaving still left after the cut...good enough!
Jointer ready for action. One edge and face are jointed square and then on to my 13" Shop Fox planer.
I had to use my MFT with some added items to get the right height for support of the long boards.
A simple roller stand set to the right height catches the long oak boards
The top jamb board I am using is curved like letter "c"! It just gave me a reason to justify the 300.00 cost of the 2700 rail purchased earlier in the project.
I set the rail as close to the edge as possible in the center of the curved board. I made measurements and found that I will still be able to get my final width of 5.5" after I make the final cut on the tablesaw.
The depth of the TS55 was set to max depth of cut. You can see that I juuuuust made it on this cut with the little bit of shaving still left after the cut...good enough!
Cutting HardiPanel: I am using a Diamond blade.
Just bought a 7" Husky "Diamond Turbo Blade" at Home Depot for about $15.00.
Bought one, because I can't find the previous two I had.
Hence the need for us to have a shop.
Just signed up to provide this tip.
Google brought me to your site.
I think I'll probably be copying your design to some degree.
Good stuff. Can't wait to see it mounted, how it works, etc.
Just bought a 7" Husky "Diamond Turbo Blade" at Home Depot for about $15.00.
Bought one, because I can't find the previous two I had.
Hence the need for us to have a shop.
Just signed up to provide this tip.
Google brought me to your site.
I think I'll probably be copying your design to some degree.
Good stuff. Can't wait to see it mounted, how it works, etc.
The next steps toward completing my doors are as follows:
Securing the outside skins (Hardi-panel on the outside and 1/4" panel on the inside)
I am planning on using good constuction adhesive to secure both sides. any suggestions on what brad or nail to use to secure the panel? ....especially the Hardipanel...what is the best fastener for the Hardipanel?
Mortising the hinges - I have been working on building this jig
http://www.shopnotes.com/issues/074/videos/using-the-hinge-mortising-jig/
The only problem with this jig is that the max width is about 3 1/2 inches. I have been working on modifying it to work on a 4.5" hinge. Any suggestions on a jig for motising these doors? The thickness of the doors is approx. 4.5" as well.
Installing the windows
Installing "kerf-in" weatherstrip for center of doors
Installing the jambs...installing threshold...hinge side weatherstrip...lots more to do yet.
Securing the outside skins (Hardi-panel on the outside and 1/4" panel on the inside)
I am planning on using good constuction adhesive to secure both sides. any suggestions on what brad or nail to use to secure the panel? ....especially the Hardipanel...what is the best fastener for the Hardipanel?
Mortising the hinges - I have been working on building this jig
http://www.shopnotes.com/issues/074/videos/using-the-hinge-mortising-jig/
The only problem with this jig is that the max width is about 3 1/2 inches. I have been working on modifying it to work on a 4.5" hinge. Any suggestions on a jig for motising these doors? The thickness of the doors is approx. 4.5" as well.
Installing the windows
Installing "kerf-in" weatherstrip for center of doors
Installing the jambs...installing threshold...hinge side weatherstrip...lots more to do yet.
Barry Londrigan said:
Here's a jig that works with 4.5" hinges, the thickness of your door might be a problem but it might be worth looking into.
http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=21099
