Dust Collector Advice Please!

[Greg M]

I'm sure I'll catch flack for this as I usually do when I mention Harbor Freight but who cares!

I don't know if you'll be running one machine at a time or multiple but if you're running 1 at a time then the system I use will work very well and save you a lot of money.  Really, if something works why spend more then you have too?

In the following thread I made several posts with some detailed info, pictures and links. 

http://festoolownersgroup.com/other-tools-accessories/dust-collector-advice/

You have to read Bill Pentz's website as was already suggested. 

If you buy any dust collector that has a bag instead of a real HEPA filter you're just making your shop less healthy.  Doesn't matter how much the system costs it probably only filters down to 5 micron and that's only after the bag has beed seasoned.  When new it's probably not filtering much under 15-20 micron particles.  Some may claim 1 micron bags but they're not.  Plus it's the particles smaller than 1 micron that are the dangerous ones.  The ones that get into your lungs and your body has a very difficult time getting rid of.

BTW, using no collection, or poor collection, and then trying to filter the air separately doesn't stop you from breathing that stuff.  You have to do a good job at the source of the dust and filter the air before you breathe it.

My shop dust collection isn't finished yet.  I've still got improvements that have to be made.  However, it is far better then it use to be and it's impossible to get it all collected because even the best systems don't catch all of the dust.    My next step is to get a particle detector to see exactly where I am as far as dust safety.

 

[Slartibartfass]

check the Grizzly website for good info and other online resources to educate yourself about static pressure, CFM and so on. Cyclone Dust collector is a must in my book.

There is some planning involved in sizing the system correctly.

 

[jacko9]

Oneida offers free dust collection system design free if you buy the duct components from them.  I provided them with a hand sketched layout of my shop along with details about overhead clearance, etc.  They provided me with a preliminary design that was tweaked a few times before I was satisfied with the layout and drops for the most efficient shop system within my constraints.  I really liked the heavy duty duct components (that won't collapse on you).  The one suggestion I would offer is to have the opening at your machines as large as possible.  I started with 4" type hoods but found that larger sized ones operated much more efficiently.  Since I had older machines, I had to have hoods fabricated and I'm sure glad I got welded steel hoods that are stout and secure in place.

Jack

 

[grbmds]

Not plugging Oneida, but I found that they know the most about dust collection. Also, JDS Air Filtraton Systems, a company which makes ceiling mounted air cleaners. They also have a lot of insight into air cleaning. As far as I know, Oneida is the only company whose dust collectors have HEPA filters whcih g0 beyond the standard HEPA filter, filtering even more of the tiny particles below .1 micron. They have not steered me wrong.

 

[jacko9]

Not plugging Oneida, but I found that they know the most about dust collection. Also, JDS Air Filtraton Systems, a company which makes ceiling mounted air cleaners. They also have a lot of insight into air cleaning. As far as I know, Oneida is the only company whose dust collectors have HEPA filters whcih g0 beyond the standard HEPA filter, filtering even more of the tiny particles below .1 micron. They have not steered me wrong.

It's funny that you spoke about ceiling clearance for your V-Sytstem.  I had the same concern and the folks at Oneida did a 3D analysis to make sure that the V-3000 fit under the rails of my roll up door.  It was a tight fit but everything works great.  I used the caulking sealer and the metal duct tape.

Jack

 

[grbmds]

For me, the clearance to the bottom of the floor joists in the basement ceiling is about 92". The V1500 is about 87"-88" on the Oneida stand. That is just the recommended amount as clearance between the ceiling and the top of the motor (although I realize that, since there is no solid ceiling the clearance is greater between the floor joists). I don't really need the bigger models. Plus, since the V1500 is 110V instead of 220V, it's just easier to use the existing circuit. I have 220 but would need to run a second outlet, which I'd rather not do. Plus the dust collector and my jointer (the only other 220 tool) on the same circuit at the same time probably would be too much for it.

 

[bruegf]

While I'm generally not a huge fan of Harbor Freight, I use their dust collector although I've modified it some.  It's been a while since I did this, but I think the total cost for the HF dc, Wynn pleated filter and thien baffle construction was under $300.

Here's a link to a site where I documented it.

http://www.jpthien.com/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=s3kp9lffl1994fc33stl6fngs1&topic=320.0

The results of the HF dc w/ Wynn pleated filter and the thien baffle are excellent.  I typically get about a cup of sawdust in the dc bag for every full 25 gallon of sawdust collected in the thien baffle separator.

Fred

 

[grbmds]

While I'm generally not a huge fan of Harbor Freight, I use their dust collector although I've modified it some.  It's been a while since I did this, but I think the total cost for the HF dc, Wynn pleated filter and thien baffle construction was under $300.

Here's a link to a site where I documented it.

http://www.jpthien.com/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=s3kp9lffl1994fc33stl6fngs1&topic=320.0

The results of the HF dc w/ Wynn pleated filter and the thien baffle are excellent.  I typically get about a cup of sawdust in the dc bag for every full 25 gallon of sawdust collected in the thien baffle separator.

Fred

The Wynn pleated filter is HEPA? I'm not familiar with it.

 

[jaguar36]

The Wynn pleated filter is HEPA? I'm not familiar with it.

Wynn is a filter company, they make filters of various efficiency.  The best ones they have in stock are MERV 15, which is a different rating, but is roughly equivalent to HEPA. They can also custom make you one of any filter material you want, but considering that even Festools aren't getting anywhere near 99.97% of the 0.3 micron dust particles, it would be a waste.

 

[Runhard]

Seth,

You should also consider Clear Vue Cyclones:
http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/

On their site you can read about the research done by Bill Pentz:
http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/

I narrowed my search down to Oneida and Clear Vue, I ended up with the Clear Vue CV1800 with Wynn filters.

 

[thedude306]

I really like Bill Pentz, and i think his info in invaluable, but I also think it becomes overwhelming for a new person on dust control.

The bottom line is that any dust collection is better then none
Just because you have "dust collection" doesn't mean you safe from dust particles.
Many people have never used DC and are still around to talk about it.  I don't like using this argument because I think everyone should strive for  the best DC possible, but it doesn't make the statement any less true.
Bill Pentz is fanatical about dust collection and his recommendations are the best of the best.

Try and get as high of CFMs as you can afford, collect the dust at the source and filter the sub micron particles out of the air.

 

[JayStPeter]

After looking more at the Oneida line, I don't think I will go that route. I don't like the small amount of dust it can hold. And also don't have a ton of room to dedicate to a dust collector and a separate larger container.

I'm thinking I might get both a dust collector and an air purifier. The amount of airborne dust in my shop lately has been insane, and I hate wearing a respirator.

Thanks for the input guys.

Seth

Along with the Jet DC 1100C unit, I also run a Jet AFS-1000B air filtration system. I made a metal roll-around cart for it so I can easily place it where I'm working. It too has a remote control as standard equipment.

I ran the combo of DC1100 and AFS-1000B for a number of years.  I got an Oneida 3HP to replace the DC1100 and it's a big difference (a$ it $hould be).  The only reason I still have the AFS-1000B is for when I'm leaving the shop after using my router handheld in MDF or something similar.  If I'm staying in the shop, the Oneida with a couple gates open will clean the air waaaay quicker.  But, I don't have a timer to shut it off like the AFS.  The price for the Oneida was pretty high and the ducting made it even higher.  Combined with my Festools, I almost never blow wood dust boogers any more.  I bought the Oneida and Festools because I was becoming sensitive to wood dust and having problems (sinus problems/headaches).  No more problems.  The DC-1100 just wasn't strong enough to pull the dust from around the room in.  The AFS does so very slowly so wasn't really the solution.  There is really no comparison between a big cyclone with a high quality filter and a portable dust collector.
If you're the type that always has safety glasses, ear protection, and dust protection on when working in the shop, the DC1100/AFS combo is probably all you'll need.  If your intention is to be that way, but you find your safety gear under a pile of junk a month later, you'll probably eventually want to upgrade to a better setup.

 

[grbmds]

Whatever you do, some dust escapes and the effectiveness of any dust collector it, to some degree, dependent on the tool itself. For example, many table saws allow dust/chips to escape on top so, without a port and connection on the blade guard, some will continue to get into the air from that. While I have figured out ways to improve dust collection on my bandsaw, there is still dust that escapes. Even some dust escapes from my TS55, even with a CT attached. I have good dust collection on my router table, but some escapes there also. Since I don't get much residue on the floor or table tops, it isn't much but it's still there. Unfortunately it can sometimes still be the fine stuff, although not nearly as much with HEPA filters and more powerful dust collection. I think the Oneidas are the best and have the best filtration of anything out there. For any extended period I still use a dust mask.

 

[jacko9]

Whatever you do, some dust escapes and the effectiveness of any dust collector it, to some degree, dependent on the tool itself. For example, many table saws allow dust/chips to escape on top so, without a port and connection on the blade guard, some will continue to get into the air from that. While I have figured out ways to improve dust collection on my bandsaw, there is still dust that escapes. Even some dust escapes from my TS55, even with a CT attached. I have good dust collection on my router table, but some escapes there also. Since I don't get much residue on the floor or table tops, it isn't much but it's still there. Unfortunately it can sometimes still be the fine stuff, although not nearly as much with HEPA filters and more powerful dust collection. I think the Oneidas are the best and have the best filtration of anything out there. For any extended period I still use a dust mask.

I have similar issues with my saws.  On my bandsaw I haven't run the drop to my V-System yet but, this little dust port from Lee Valley attaches right next to my bottom guides and captures a lot of dust.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=30041&cat=1,42401&ap=1

Jack

 

[grbmds]

Whatever you do, some dust escapes and the effectiveness of any dust collector it, to some degree, dependent on the tool itself. For example, many table saws allow dust/chips to escape on top so, without a port and connection on the blade guard, some will continue to get into the air from that. While I have figured out ways to improve dust collection on my bandsaw, there is still dust that escapes. Even some dust escapes from my TS55, even with a CT attached. I have good dust collection on my router table, but some escapes there also. Since I don't get much residue on the floor or table tops, it isn't much but it's still there. Unfortunately it can sometimes still be the fine stuff, although not nearly as much with HEPA filters and more powerful dust collection. I think the Oneidas are the best and have the best filtration of anything out there. For any extended period I still use a dust mask.

I have similar issues with my saws.  On my bandsaw I haven't run the drop to my V-System yet but, this little dust port from Lee Valley attaches right next to my bottom guides and captures a lot of dust.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=30041&cat=1,42401&ap=1

Jack

I've added under the table collection to the factory side 4" port on my Rikon bandsaw and that improves things a lot. Still, some escapes and it's really hard to know what is really floating around in the air. The escaping dust on the table saw top is a little harder to get rid of unless the manufacturer makes a blade guard with dust collection. My only point was that I get as much as possible and continue to improve if I think there is a way to capture more. I think the V1500 I just bought will do that for my use, but I have not found anything that is perfect. I can always tell when there is some dust in the  air for even a short time till my air cleaner gets it. My eyes get kind of fuzzy and dried out from the dust. So, I use every kind of protection I can.

 

[jacko9]

Whatever you do, some dust escapes and the effectiveness of any dust collector it, to some degree, dependent on the tool itself. For example, many table saws allow dust/chips to escape on top so, without a port and connection on the blade guard, some will continue to get into the air from that. While I have figured out ways to improve dust collection on my bandsaw, there is still dust that escapes. Even some dust escapes from my TS55, even with a CT attached. I have good dust collection on my router table, but some escapes there also. Since I don't get much residue on the floor or table tops, it isn't much but it's still there. Unfortunately it can sometimes still be the fine stuff, although not nearly as much with HEPA filters and more powerful dust collection. I think the Oneidas are the best and have the best filtration of anything out there. For any extended period I still use a dust mask.

I have similar issues with my saws.  On my bandsaw I haven't run the drop to my V-System yet but, this little dust port from Lee Valley attaches right next to my bottom guides and captures a lot of dust.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=30041&cat=1,42401&ap=1

Jack

I've added under the table collection to the factory side 4" port on my Rikon bandsaw and that improves things a lot. Still, some escapes and it's really hard to know what is really floating around in the air. The escaping dust on the table saw top is a little harder to get rid of unless the manufacturer makes a blade guard with dust collection. My only point was that I get as much as possible and continue to improve if I think there is a way to capture more. I think the V1500 I just bought will do that for my use, but I have not found anything that is perfect. I can always tell when there is some dust in the  air for even a short time till my air cleaner gets it. My eyes get kind of fuzzy and dried out from the dust. So, I use every kind of protection I can.

I think your doing all the right things and hope you can get your reactions down to acceptable levels.  I know that I almost gave up woodworking when I got so bad I had trouble breathing and sleeping at night.  Between Festool and Oneida my shop is over 90% better than a few years ago.

Jack

 

[JayStPeter]

Whatever you do, some dust escapes and the effectiveness of any dust collector it, to some degree, dependent on the tool itself. For example, many table saws allow dust/chips to escape on top so, without a port and connection on the blade guard, some will continue to get into the air from that. While I have figured out ways to improve dust collection on my bandsaw, there is still dust that escapes. Even some dust escapes from my TS55, even with a CT attached. I have good dust collection on my router table, but some escapes there also. Since I don't get much residue on the floor or table tops, it isn't much but it's still there. Unfortunately it can sometimes still be the fine stuff, although not nearly as much with HEPA filters and more powerful dust collection. I think the Oneidas are the best and have the best filtration of anything out there. For any extended period I still use a dust mask.

I get what you're saying and I agree.  Honestly, I hate wearing dust masks and it makes it far less enjoyable for me to work in my shop.  Fact is, I just don't wear it.  So with wood dust affecting me, I either needed to quit or see what I could do to improve the situation.  I have an older 3HP commercial Oneida with a huge filter.  All my duct work is 6" PVC and connected to the machines with the largest diameter I could fit.  Sure dust escapes the table saw, though negligible amounts when I use the overhead but can't always.  the stuff that gets airborne turns tail and gets sucked back into the machine.  The DC system creates an airflow through the whole area that sucks the dust back in.  Does that mean I don't breathe any dust while using the table saw ... no.  But if I leave the system on for a few minutes after use, I don't have all that dust flying around while I'm fitting things at my bench after making my cuts.  The Jet AFS-1000 takes waaaay longer to filter the air in my shop, at least 10x as long.  When you watch the dust in the light filtering through the windows you can see how fast it moves with the big DC and see how much clearer the air gets in just a few minutes.  So, yeah, I still breathe some dust.  Just not nearly as much.

 

[Gary in Texas]

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I have the Jet DC-1100 with the canister filter and a couple of air filtration units in my shop.  That set-up has served well these past years....  My shop stays pretty clean and dust free.

I've routinely gone to the Oneida website numerous times over the last 12-24 months, but haven't pulled the trigger on a new HEPA DC primarily due to anticipation of relocating and wanting to properly size the DC to the new shop.  With minimal use of most machines that create fine dust, I've been able to postpone the driving need for a HEPA unit.  Until now, the Oneida unit has been my preferred upgrade.

I also mentioned the upgrade to HEPA Grizzly dust collectors in my previous post, and noted today reviewing both units that the filtration and HEPA specs are pretty much same/same for the Oneida vs Grizzly units.  The 3HP Grizzly claims about 300 more CFM than the comparable Oneida V-System, but less SP (2.0) than the Oneida (2.3).

Most ironic, Grizzly is known for having the "cheaper" alternative for woodworking tools, yet, the Grizzly 3HP HEPA unit bottom line cost is approximately $700 more than the Oneida (excluding shipping).  I'm now wondering how the Grizzly filtration short and long-term stacks up against the Oneida.  It appears from the photo of the Grizzly unit, if you need to later down the line, you can exchange the Grizzly HEPA filters perhaps more easily than exchanging the filter on the Oneida?  I've attached a photo of the latest upgraded Grizzly HEPA unit for comparison....

I have no preferences at this time for either unit, but do intend to upgrade sometime in the (hopefully) near future.  Any thoughts pro or con on the Grizzly unit, besides the obvious higher price difference.  Does the additional CFM outweigh the slight lag in SP?  Thoughts?

 

[jaguar36]

Keep in mind that the Onedia systems are not HEPA systems, they use HEPA filter media.  Thats kinda like putting a HEPA filter on a Shop-Vac and calling it a HEPA vac, vs a CT-26, which is a true HEPA vac.  Grizzly claims that there G0441HEP system is a HEPA system, so based purely on manufactures claims they provide better filtration.

The Grizzly has a two stage filtration system (well three technically counting the cyclone) which is a great way to do high quality filtration.  However, in practice both the Oneida V, and the Grizzly G0441HEP provide excellent filtration such that how well your dust collection is at the source is going to far out weigh the minor differences in filtration efficiency.  This will be particularly true once the filters have been used for a bit and develop a dust cake on that that will further increase efficiency.

As for the CFM and SP ratings, I think they are both close enough that if you were to do a side by side comparison with the same equipment either one could be better or worse.

I'd be a bit warry of the design of the Grizzly though, if you accidentally forget to change the cyclone bin and the filter loads of with dust there doesn't appear to be any easy way to blow out the primary filter, since it is surrounded by a steel drum.  Might be very easy to remove it though if that ever happened.

 

[SethThompson]

Thanks for all the advice guys. I pulled the trigger yesterday and ordered the Oneida V-System 3000. When I was looking at the V-series, it seemed almost dumb to get either of the smaller models. Those two units save just $100, and the only reason I can see for buying the V-1500 would be if you had no way of accessing 220v. For $100 you can get a 3hp model over a 1.5hp. Seems like a heck of a deal to me.

One thing I have to say about Oneida: Their customer service is terrific. I called in and the salesman, Dan, helped me with all the questions I had. Also, when you buy a duct collector from them, (3HP and above if I recall correctly) they will help with your ductwork design for free if you buy at least half their design. They normally want a $200 deposit which is refunded when you buy their design, but Dan waived the fee since he seemed confident I'll like their design, plus my design was rather small compared to a lot of shops. He even gave me half price shipping. The ductwork design is a huge help to me since I'm new to legit dust collection, and didn't want to get a nice collector then install ductwork like an idiot.

Overall I'm just plain impressed with Oneida. Knowledgeable people that want you to get the right tool. Dan even called as I was typing this to go over where my ceiling lights are so they can avoid them. These guys are on the ball.

I'm actually relieved I didn't go with the Jet or Powermatic. All of the extra help Oneida offers made my decision easy.

Seth