Dye/Pigment, then topcoat...Big Coatings vs. Flexner (et al)

[Festdewalkita]

'Begin your projects with the finish in mind.' That seems to be the conventional wisdom.

BLUF: Looking at various and sundry sprayable finishes for an Apollo Precision-5 that I have zero proficiency using (yes; cardboard, water, food dye; practice before spraying WB finishes), I'm trying to figure out what pegs (modern products) fit into what holes (WB Poly is 1st choice, but I'll entertain using Conversion Varnish and Aliphatic, Catalyzed Poly products).

New base/wall cabs need a white/white-ish finish, and ditto the temporary butcherblock counters.

So, which dye/pigment product and what topcoat for this spraying noob? I've searched for WB Poly, but it seems that too many products are actually hybrids (hey, if it's got 1% WB Poly by volume, is 'Big Coatings, Inc.' really lying?)

Background:

So I'm looking at kitchen cabinetry. I was supposed to cut my teeth on smaller cabinetry, but...life.

I have to do at least a partial build...now. 48" and 30" stretch of frameless overlay or frameless inset bottom cabs, and two 27" wall cabs. Quartersawn white oak ply, white/white-ish finish, edges covered with actual 3/4" Qswn Wh Oak wood.

We tried concrete countertops, and decided 'not for us.' We're eventually going to get 1.5" white/white-ish marble on top of the new 34.5" bottom cabs I'm going to build, but as an alternative to the granite that's currently on top of existing 34.5" cabs, we were looking at staining some off-the-shelf butcherblock with white/white-ish to still let the grain show, then finishing with something durable. When we get the marble, we'll re-purpose the butcherblock into...something (desk for daughters?, end tables?).

Looking at Bob Lang's book, he recommends a WB Poly. Looking at both of Flexner's books, "Understanding..." and "...101", it would seem that Marketing has worked with Sales at 'Big Coatings, Inc.' to completely muddy the waters.

I ordered Jewitt's "Finishing" and 'Spraying-Made Easy' to maybe see if there's some clarity there.

I'd love to order Neil's "Finishing, Simply Put" to see what he had to say, but read that he self-published and since the by-all-accounts generous and knowledgeable man passed in 2019, so unless I stumble across someone's used book...

Looking at Architectural Woodworking Institute's website, there's this that has the Performance Characteristics table with a list of common reagents that will mess with your finish.

(see attachment at end?  I dunno...this forum's software isn't intuitive)

So there's lots of mentions of GF Enduro (RTM followed by Enduro Clear Poly Dead Flat, which isn't really recommended over white/white-ish colors?), Renner (maybe 2471 with 851 topcoat?), and Target (NR4000 with EM8000cv?), as well as products from Benjamin Moore (Advance vs. Command) and PPG’s Break-Through!.

I dunno, that's what I'm trying to figure out.

Doing a search is what got me to this point, but knowing which hybrid product is which, and in comparison to what category mentioned by Flexner (or AWI's table above, or whatever Jewitt or Neil have to say) is...darn near impossible for this noob, at best.

Thanks in advance...hopefully I'll be able to pay it forward, someday, somehow.

p.s. Sorry to everyone in advance if I missed the thread that covers this question already.

 

[peter halle]

What exactly is the question? [big grin]

 

[Packard]

I have a HVLP stage 4 sprayer. I tried spraying w.b. Clear, but did not like the look.  I settled on wipe-on oil based poly.  Much slower, but turns out perfectly every single time.

For stains, I brush on and the wipe off.  I never spray.  If you use w.b. Stain, it will likely raise the grain, and you will have to sand and stain a second time.  I use oil based stains.

 

[usernumber1]

aniline dye and wipe on poly

you can spray if you want

 

[Festdewalkita]

What exactly is the question? [big grin]

Har har.  I know no-one has time.  I appreciate the patience and the time-expenditure.

"So, which dye/pigment product and what topcoat for this spraying noob?"

I'd love for it to be WB. 

But I'm old enough to know I shouldn't re-invent the wheel.  I know there's a lot of talent here ([member=4105]tjbnwi[/member], [member=24938]JCLP[/member]...very pleased to see [member=68525]usernumber1[/member] and @Packard already), and that picking the brain of wheel-makers is the way to go.

As I said, I just find the generic names versus what product I see very confusing.  From my perspective, it's very much on purpose.

 

[tjbnwi]

To start with, the base cabinets may need to be 34-3/4” tall. Most stone tops are 3cm. Check with the supplier.

The color you’re looking to achieve is one of our biggest sellers. We use Zar Beach House oil stain, handed applied, top coated with 3 coats of SW Hydro Plus mixed with hardener. The finish has to come from a SW Product Finishes store, they may not sell to you.

[attachimg=1]

I just looked Trans Tint does no offer white.

If you want a whiter look, Simply White Minwax stain.

You’ll find staining/spraying/finishing the most difficult easy thing you’ll ever do in woodworking.

Tom

 

[Crazyraceguy]

There are also pigmented oil finishes like Rubio and Osmo.  They give you color and protection at the same time and are hand applied with no streaking/blotching, like traditional stains can.
They are bit pricey, but a little goes a long way, plus the color/finish in one product.

 

[Packard]

I met Norm Abrams at a Hardware Show in Chicago.  Our display booth was adjacent to the one where he was working.  This was going back about 30 - 35 years ago.  I believe he was working at the DeWalt booth showing their just-released contractors’ saw.

He had several of his pieces on display, including a replica lap desk done in pine.

I asked him about the finish and he told me that he used Minwax’s oil based Polyshades.  It was the only clear that he used on pine because it eliminated blotching.

It has been mine too, but wiped on rather than brushed on.  It has never failed me.

(I could not get on FOG earlier.  It took so long to load that I got a “timed out” notification on my tablet.)

 

[Festdewalkita]

To start with, the base cabinets may need to be 34-3/4” tall. Most stone tops are 3cm. Check with the supplier.

The color you’re looking to achieve is one of our biggest sellers. We use Zar Beach House oil stain, handed applied, top coated with 3 coats of SW Hydro Plus mixed with hardener. The finish has to come from a SW Product Finishes store, they may not sell to you.

[attachimg=1]

I just looked Trans Tint does no offer white.

If you want a whiter look, Simply White Minwax stain.

You’ll find staining/spraying/finishing the most difficult easy thing you’ll ever do in woodworking.

Tom

Thank you, Tom...I was wondering why the old granite was 1.25" on 34.5" cabs!  I mis-typed (we're considering Quartz, not marble), but it'll be something to look out for.

And thanks for the specific product recommendations...do you mean this Hydroplus or this Hydroplus?

 

[Festdewalkita]

There are also pigmented oil finishes like Rubio and Osmo.  They give you color and protection at the same time and are hand applied with no streaking/blotching, like traditional stains can.
They are bit pricey, but a little goes a long way, plus the color/finish in one product.

I know folks love these products, but I'm wary of their appropriateness for my application. 

In conjunction with the hardner (that is only supposed to help the Rubio cure faster), what hole does this peg fit in to? 

I haven't researched Osmo much, but am guessing it's nearly the same.

I'd rather do the hard work now, than do several iterations of strip/sand/re-finish.

I know no-one mentioned it in their responses, but I'll say it anyways...I read here that that the isocyanates in the poly 2k products are worthy of great respect (PPE, disposal cautions), so I'm not sure I'd use any WB Poly that was also a Poly 2K product. 

Again, more confusion and less-than-full-disclosure from Big Coatings, Inc.

 

[Festdewalkita]

(I could not get on FOG earlier.  It took so long to load that I got a “timed out” notification on my tablet.)

Servers/CDNs cost money, and times are getting more and more obviously tough.  Resources are finite, and Festool can't print currency.

Reminds me of the dial-up days.