Electrical advice sought on Federal Pioneer panel circuit breaker

[ChuckM]

Were you a Master Electrician in your previous life?

The contractors told me that I should be prepared for having no power to the house for up to 8 hours.

The labor charge on one of the quotes is $800, which is the market rate here at $100 Cdn/hr. (The average hourly wage for electricians here is between $35 and $50 plus benefits.)

I just noted that the fee for the power company is times 2, meaning one trip for cutting off the power and a return trip for turning it back on. The total fee for the city and power company amounts to $670 Cdn+tax.

 

[DeformedTree]

Were you a Master Electrician in your previous life?

Eh,  I have experience in things.

 

[Holzhacker]

The pricing DeformedTree listed are in line with material and labor costs around here.
Not sure why you would be calling the electrical company to turn power ON/OFF. Around here everybody just yanks the meter then puts it back into the socket when done.
A panel swap is 2-3 hrs.. If there are a lot of pipes, Greenfield or tight quarters it can be 3-4 hrs. If I had taken 8hrs to do a panel swap my master would have kicked me off the job. On the flip side, a contractor will charge you for the full 8 hr day because by the time he's done doing the job, dealing with you, packing up, driving, etc. there isn't much of the day left. Maybe enough time for a service call or two.
If you have guys telling you the Stab lok panels are ok, they are the guys NOT to hire.

 

[DeformedTree]

I wouldn't base keeping it on a 1980s US document saying "eh, we will ignore it".  I skimmed it but basically it's going with "there are a ton of these in service, doing a detailed study if these are bad would cost a lot of money, and if they were to be recalled, it would cost a massive amount of money, so lets just ignore this".  Either way, those panels were doomed in this country, and everyone has been replacing them for decades. Basically nothing every gets recalled here that is built into homes, it just falls out of use.

Oddly the only reason I knew they still existed in Canada was from various Mike Holmes shows. Such panels showed up from time to time doing some searching I found out they were the stab-lock  FPE panels.  The pretty white breakers and colorful switches were interesting, till I found what they were.  I have seen Frank service some of them, but most often they just replace the panel, often a vague reason given for replacing it. Clearly he's not going to say things like "these are a fire hazard in the US and not sold there for decades, so I'm going to remove it" and create a whole big panic, or even a potential liable lawsuit.

They aren't illegal there, and Electricians you are talking to very well installed many of them. I would suspect the ones that say it's fine are such folks. They don't want to go down a road of stuff they have used or do install is bad and shouldn't be used. But at the same time they probably are good with quietly removing them.

 

[Mario Turcot]

[member=57948]ChuckM[/member] I did replace my 100AMPS panel for a 200AMPS 4 years ago. The cost was just under 2,000. I provided the panel and breakers, and also an adequare backboard. Since I need to rewire everything, they put a 100AMPS breaker to feed my old panel while everything is competed.

Because they had to replace the service mast, meter and wires, it cost me an extra $600 from the electricity provider. Everything was completed within 6hrs.

If you go that route, I strongly suggest that  you use bolt-on breakers instead of Clip-on.

In Canada you need a Master Electrician to get that kind of permit.

 

[ChuckM]

Thanks, Mario.

I'll bear this in mind and see what the price difference is like when a final contractor is picked. What's the key advantage of these bolt-on breakers?

My current panel is 125 AMP.

 

[Mario Turcot]

Thanks, Mario.

I'll bear this in mind and see what the price difference is like when a final contractor is picked. What's the key advantage of these bolt-on breakers?

My current panel is 125 AMP.

The main advantage is a better contact. Electrical panels like everything else is subject to vibration and the clip-on is prone to loosen with time. I installed hundreds of panels during my 18 years as industrial electrician and always been bolt-on. Use to conduct yearly inspection on panels, checking every single breakers.

 

[ChuckM]

[thumbs up]

 

[Sparktrician]

Thanks, Mario.

I'll bear this in mind and see what the price difference is like when a final contractor is picked. What's the key advantage of these bolt-on breakers?

My current panel is 125 AMP.

The main advantage is a better contact. Electrical panels like everything else is subject to vibration and the clip-on is prone to loosen with time. I installed hundreds of panels during my 18 years as industrial electrician and always been bolt-on. Use to conduct yearly inspection on panels, checking every single breakers.

 

Mario nailed it.  Better (more solid) contact means less opportunity for oxidation which, in turn, causes high-resistance shorts which often result in fires. 

Around here, one has to pull a permit, arrange with the power company to schedule a meter pull and (later in the day) a meter reinstallation after the county inspector gets there to do his thing, and this is a job for a licensed master electrician.  In the meantime, every lead has to be identified as it's removed from the old panel; the power feeds have to be carefully removed to avoid nicking the aluminum conductors; the new panel needs to be reinstalled flawlessly with all conductors neatly and safely reconnected before the inspector arrives to verify the work is done right.  It's tedious and time-consuming, and all that results in pretty steep fees, once all the individuals and entities get paid for their efforts. 

 

[Peter_C]

With a 125amp panel, it would be a good idea to contact the power company to find out if you can up your panel to a 200amp feed. Depending on how the wires enter the house it may require mast replacement if overhead wires, or very simply just upping the breaker panel and the main breaker, with permission from the power company. They may have to do a physical inspection prior to approval. 

Is there a sub panel in the home too?

My own house was upgraded from a 100amp service (Smoked Murray panel) to a 200amp service requiring a mast replacement. It took two of us 10 hours to get it reconnected and fridge back on. Typical cost in California starts at $2500 for a panel swap and goes up for add-ons like mast replacement. Trim must be on for final inspection, but caulk and painting not required here to pass. There were a lot of other things I had to do in advance of the panel replacement to meet current code, like running a ground from the incoming water pipe, across the hot water heater to the breaker panel ground, which required driving in a new ground rod. Those types of jobs will drive the costs up if you don't want to do them yourself.

 

[ChuckM]

The panel in the basement is the only panel for the house and garage.

If not the pandemic, we were thinking about downsizing, and moving to a smaller place in three or four years. Replacing or upgrading the panel wasn't in any of our plan (of course, we didn't even know about the Federal Pioneer hazard background until now).

The thought of selling and moving probably is up in the air given the uncertainty of both the pandemic and economy. If anything, we'd like to catch with up the lost travel opportunities than moving!

I have a little over half a dozen empty slots in the current panel (out of 42?), and am not planning any significant changes to the configuration. May be I'd add one more 20amp circuit and another 220V outlet (SawStop runs on 120V, but can be upgraded to 220V) under the new panel for the shop if they don't involve extra permit fee.

 

[DeformedTree]

Every Place does permit fees differently, so adding circuits may add to the permit, or may just be covered under the whole thing.

If you are planning/thinking of moving, then I would definitely upgrade the panel.  Even if legal, I'm sure home inspectors and such in Canada know about the issues and would flag it in a report, or possibly a perspective home buyer. Plus having a new panel will be seen as a good thing.

The  comment on the service size is a good one.  This is why I mentioned replacement service cable from meter to panel. From what I have seen, utilities at some point did general start doing drops as if everything is 200A, even if builders saved a few bucks and put a 125, 150A panel in a house. Getting to 200A will open up options for you and future owners. As the world goes electric, having 200A will be a must for everyone. 

It gets back to the permit questions and such, and I don't know how hard it would be to run. But if you go ahead with this, look into having a Nema 14-50 plug run into the garage.  This is basically the standard for EV car chargers.  Cheap to do it when the electrician is there and permits are pulled.

These are all things that people will be looking for if you sell your home.

 

[Samo]

=share

 

[jeh]

=share

While the video is informative that creator needs to be less animated. Hard to stay focused with his arms flailing like he is learning how to swim.

 

[DeformedTree]

=share

While the video is informative that creator needs to be less animated. Hard to stay focused with his arms flailing like he is learning how to swim.

He's fully utilizing the aspect ratio, he always stays in frame, and yet uses it all.  Still, it's just how some folks are. Would be better if he had same units to show people more, than just looking at him the whole time.