Electrical circuit took a day off

[AlexThePalex]

Toddlers, haunted house ..... same difference.  [wink]

 

[Gregor]

I had an electrician swing by a few months ago to add an outlet for a new gas fireplace insert. He mentioned he could replace our aging main panel with a new SqD 200a box, all up to code with a mains switch off and GFCI, for something like $1,200. A good deal for the Pacific Northwest?

Suggest that you check out the Leviton Smart Load Center.  This is a game-changing revamp of the traditional load center which offers plug-in breakers with all wiring done on the backplane, not to the breakers directly.  [smile]

To be curious, where's the point in that thing?

I'm from germany, a load center here gets wired once, by a professional and noone touches them from then on, ever...

 

[Bob D.]

Add a whole house surge protector if you put a new panel in. Cheap to do at time of installation.

 

[jeh]

Suggest that you check out the Leviton Smart Load Center.  This is a game-changing revamp of the traditional load center which offers plug-in breakers with all wiring done on the backplane, not to the breakers directly.  [smile]

Thanks for the heads up on this product. I am building a new home and will be going with this panel. I had my mind set on a Generac GenReady panel with a built-in transfer switch, but I can integrate the generator with a separate switch.

 

[Sparktrician]

Suggest that you check out the Leviton Smart Load Center.  This is a game-changing revamp of the traditional load center which offers plug-in breakers with all wiring done on the backplane, not to the breakers directly.  [smile]

Thanks for the heads up on this product. I am building a new home and will be going with this panel. I had my mind set on a Generac GenReady panel with a built-in transfer switch, but I can integrate the generator with a separate switch.

You might want to check with Leviton to see what they offer in terms of load transfer switching compatible with the Smart Load Center. 

 

[mwolczko]

Suggest that you check out the Leviton Smart Load Center. 

I wouldn’t get this.  The life of a load center should be measured in decades.  What is the chance that there is a functioning app even 10 years from now, much less after that? 

Many companies are underestimating the support costs for apps (I’m in I.T.), and then abandoning their products (that’s a generous interpretation; I suspect many know damn well their product’s life is short).  E.g., the first wave of net-connected security cameras has already been abandoned, after just 5 years (eg Logitech, INSTEON).

The only sustainable business model is to charge an annual subscription for the app —and even that didn’t stop Logitech dropping its cameras.  How would you feel about paying 20 bucks a year to keep your load center going?  Even at that price they’d need tens of thousands of subs to cover their costs.

 

[jeh]

Suggest that you check out the Leviton Smart Load Center. 

I wouldn’t get this.  The life of a load center should be measured in decades.  What is the chance that there is a functioning app even 10 years from now, much less after that? 

Many companies are underestimating the support costs for apps (I’m in I.T.), and then abandoning their products (that’s a generous interpretation; I suspect many know darn well their product’s life is short).  E.g., the first wave of net-connected security cameras has already been abandoned, after just 5 years (eg Logitech, INSTEON).

The only sustainable business model is to charge an annual subscription for the app —and even that didn’t stop Logitech dropping its cameras.  How would you feel about paying 20 bucks a year to keep your load center going?  Even at that price they’d need tens of thousands of subs to cover their costs.

I'm not overly concerned about the app as I know it won't last unless they sell a ton of units and even then 10 years could be a dream and 5 might be more realistic. I like the ease of wiring and that is the only reason I am considering it.

 

[cpw]

Suggest that you check out the Leviton Smart Load Center. 

I wouldn’t get this.  The life of a load center should be measured in decades.  What is the chance that there is a functioning app even 10 years from now, much less after that? 

Many companies are underestimating the support costs for apps (I’m in I.T.), and then abandoning their products (that’s a generous interpretation; I suspect many know darn well their product’s life is short).  E.g., the first wave of net-connected security cameras has already been abandoned, after just 5 years (eg Logitech, INSTEON).

The only sustainable business model is to charge an annual subscription for the app —and even that didn’t stop Logitech dropping its cameras.  How would you feel about paying 20 bucks a year to keep your load center going?  Even at that price they’d need tens of thousands of subs to cover their costs.

I'm not overly concerned about the app as I know it won't last unless they sell a ton of units and even then 10 years could be a dream and 5 might be more realistic. I like the ease of wiring and that is the only reason I am considering it.

Not having to have all the neutrals tied to a breaker and then the bus bar with the required AFCI and GFCIs in the latest codes does seem like it would make a much neater installation.

I would be more worried about the availability and cost of the specialized breakers in 30 years than the app, which can't have anything to do with the actual safe function of the system.

 

[DeformedTree]

Be nice if they clearly showed what was special about that panel, but from what I see and from some of the comments it sounds like someone realized all the wires should connect to the panel and then plug the breaker in.  I've wondered why they haven't had this before. I think square D has something similar where they have added a neutral bar on each side with an extension on the breakers that stabs into it, so no more neutral pigtails.

Panels are in need of a redesign, but they need to focus on other areas like standardizing breakers so you don't have to match brand to brand. If they were interchangeable by rule/code/etc  then the AFCI/GFCI breakers wouldn't cost 40-45 bucks but much less. I like code mandating them, but as is, each vendor has a monopoly and can charge what ever they want.  Really they should just get to DIN rail breakers so you have near universal flexibility.

In some ways there design could be bad/annoying depending on how they did it, it it forces you to shut the whole thing down just to add a circuit or do some quick task, that will bring it's usage to a halt.  Yes, we all know we should shut it all down, but few of us ever do since having the house be without power during that time isn't really a good option.   

I would have just been happy if panel makers had come around to the reality of GFCI/AFCI code and started putting neutral and ground bars on both sides of the panels.  As is, if you are going a panel full of GFCI/AFCI breakers you are going to have to put extensions on neutrals just to wrap around to the opposite side of the panel.  If your main panel is wired as a sub panel, the current designs are very annoying. 

I didn't even know leviton made panels, that's another strike.  If you are going to enter that market, why re-invent the wheel with proprietary to you verses build with standard stuff (DIN breakers)

 

[DeformedTree]

I had an electrician swing by a few months ago to add an outlet for a new gas fireplace insert. He mentioned he could replace our aging main panel with a new SqD 200a box, all up to code with a mains switch off and GFCI, for something like $1,200. A good deal for the Pacific Northwest?

Suggest that you check out the Leviton Smart Load Center.  This is a game-changing revamp of the traditional load center which offers plug-in breakers with all wiring done on the backplane, not to the breakers directly.  [smile]

To be curious, where's the point in that thing?

I'm from germany, a load center here gets wired once, by a professional and noone touches them from then on, ever...

It specifically doesn't have much point other than a tweak to how the breakers are wired.  Our panels no matter the brand all basically work on the same layout.  Since we are split phase power, you have the 240 come in (2 hots) to a main breaker, along with a neutral (the center tap from the transformer).  There are 2 bars down the middle of the panel each has tabs that bend up on a 1" pitch. The 2 overlap in a way that going down one side, each breaker alternates between each of the hots. In this way a single breaker will get you 110V (to neutral) and double breakers grab both hots and thus get 240V, no neutral. A 40 space panel can have 40 110V circuits or 20 220V circuits or a mix.  When you install the breaker it grabs those tabs.  To finish the circuit you have the wires from the circuit come in and the hot will wire to the end of the breaker under a screw. If it's a 110V circuit, the neutral will go to a seperate neutral bar in the panel and the ground will go to a separate ground bar.  If this is a a main panel, the neutral and ground bars will have a jumper to join them (this is the only spot these 2 are joined). If it's a sub-panel, the 2 are not joined.  This all means when your wire come in gets stripped and goes all over in the panel, hot to the breaker, neutral to ground bar, ground to ground bar. If it's a 220V then the the neutral goes to the doubled up breaker as the second hot, not the neutral bar. If it's a 220V/110V circuit then you got 4 wires going all those places.  This all gets messy.  Some time ago GFCI came out and more recently AFCI,  so now the breakers have a neutral wire pig tail that comes out of them and has to run to the neutral bar and the neutral from the circuit now wires to the breaker. This is why they have the pigtail factory installed, it's an effort to ensure it doesn't get forgotten or wired wrong. But they only give you maybe 18" of wire. But the neutral bar could be on the other side of the panel, so you have to extend the wire to wrap around (more mess).  So now, finally manufactures are trying to improve this, but most are just bolting on stuff to old designs (our breakers are basically unchanged since the 1950s).  This design looks to be wiring it all up in the back and then just installing the breaker on top, no wires run to the breaker.

Cost cutting hasn't helped things.  Panels are design with full height ground an neutral bars, but to save a few cents they make them shorter. So now you end up with a 40 space panel that might only have 30 ground and 30 neutral screws.  They assume a mix of 220/110 so you might just make it.  Also if it's a main panel you can (though bad practice) put the neutral and grounds to the same bars. The problem is if it ever becomes a sub panel, someone has to do major re-wiring/re-routing to make it work.

Far as "smart"  no, that's a joke, and just dumb.  It's part of the "internet of things" trying to convince people they can't live without their toaster having an IP address.

In the US generally panels are installed when house is built, wired by a licensed electrician and then inspected by building inspector. But thru the life of the house they get altered.  Additions mean more circuits needed.  Remodels cause changes.  Folks may re-wire something a change to something. Maybe they go and add AFCI breakers, or electrical surge breakers.  Also you have lot of homes with un-finished basements, so when it gets finished they add more circuits.  So panels tend to change get worked on thru the life of the house.  Depending on where you live you can do any electrical you want. Other places you are suppose to get a permit and have your work inspected.  In some places they won't let a home owner do electrical, but that's not very common as you get into a property rights conflict.  Most anyone if they follow the rules can do their own electrical, not that anyone is watching them. But you can almost never do work on someone else's home unless you are licensed and get permit. But of course if you live in an area with no building department, it's wild west basically.

Panels get replaced in a life of a house very commonly.  Mine is on it's 3rd.  Previous owner had a legit company do bad work on the house and did a hack job of a panel replacement, this was to provide room for power for adding AC to the house.  Builder homes tend to have undersized panels (code allows 100Amp panels), so the houses need new service and panels to be able to support any real usage.  Maybe someday they will mandate 200Amp panels which is the norm for anyone not going cheap, and by cheap a builder trying to save just a few dollars.  Now with cities beginning to Ban Natural Gas connections,  the shift to 200 and 400A services will gain speed in areas that have stuck to 100A services for a long time.

 

[RussellS]

I had an electrician swing by a few months ago to add an outlet for a new gas fireplace insert. He mentioned he could replace our aging main panel with a new SqD 200a box, all up to code with a mains switch off and GFCI, for something like $1,200.

That seems expensive to me.  The electrician is NOT rewiring any of the wires running throughout your house.  He is just unhooking all the wires that are already at the panel.  And hooking them up to a new panel.  If your current panel works, what are you gaining from a new panel?  You could add a subpanel right next to your current panel and get more space for breakers, if that is your main reason.

 

[RKA]

Suggest that you check out the Leviton Smart Load Center. 

I wouldn’t get this.  The life of a load center should be measured in decades.  What is the chance that there is a functioning app even 10 years from now, much less after that? 

Many companies are underestimating the support costs for apps (I’m in I.T.), and then abandoning their products (that’s a generous interpretation; I suspect many know darn well their product’s life is short).  E.g., the first wave of net-connected security cameras has already been abandoned, after just 5 years (eg Logitech, INSTEON).

The only sustainable business model is to charge an annual subscription for the app —and even that didn’t stop Logitech dropping its cameras.  How would you feel about paying 20 bucks a year to keep your load center going?  Even at that price they’d need tens of thousands of subs to cover their costs.

I agree.  I haven't looked into this specific product, but the idea doesn't strike me as a good one for reasons I will describe.  Going a beyond the app, software and hardware has a limited lifespan, particularly if it is accessible from the outside and doesn't live in an isolated static environment.  No software is 100% bug free or hack free, so updates are part of the equation (for as long as they are offered).  And many times these devices are dependent on software, hardware and other technologies.  It's a complicated ecosystem of technology and the only known is eventually it all changes and older versions are deprecated.  Somewhere around 10 years is a reasonable lifespan before you're running into these obstacles born from old software.  This isn't a reality that dawned upon many since we're relatively early into the IoT lifecycle, but it will within the next 5 years as wireless cameras, thermostats, locks and other smart devices start falling "out of the cloud" so to speak. 

This particular panel may no longer offer the ability to remotely monitor the circuits when that happens, but I would argue that's unnecessary anyway.  But how is this panel configured?  If it's mechanically configured, fine, it will still work.  If any part of it's configuration is software dependent, that will spell trouble for a device that should last many decades.  If any part of it's function or configuration requires it to be connected to the internet, that may also spell trouble. 

We knowingly make these trade offs for convenience, and that's okay with a simple device like a camera or thermostat.  But an electrical panel is a necessary part of your household infrastructure.  It warrants a lot more consideration. 

 

[jonnyrocket]

I had an electrician swing by a few months ago to add an outlet for a new gas fireplace insert. He mentioned he could replace our aging main panel with a new SqD 200a box, all up to code with a mains switch off and GFCI, for something like $1,200.

That seems expensive to me.  The electrician is NOT rewiring any of the wires running throughout your house.  He is just unhooking all the wires that are already at the panel.  And hooking them up to a new panel.  If your current panel works, what are you gaining from a new panel?  You could add a subpanel right next to your current panel and get more space for breakers, if that is your main reason.

Not knowing the specifics of where you live or what is involved, I can say that I live in Oregon and that price is pretty reasonable. I just replaced a panel for a friend who bought an older house. The list of parts needed to do the job for a 40 space panel and 30 circuit breakers was $500 from Home Depot. Not to mention the roughly 6 hours that it takes to do a nice clean job on something like this. 
I haven't worked full time as an electrician for 14 years now, but that price even back then was about right.
If you are in the Portland metro area, that price is pretty low as much of the larger industrial jobs tend to drive all prices higher than if you live further out.

 

[RussellS]

I had an electrician swing by a few months ago to add an outlet for a new gas fireplace insert. He mentioned he could replace our aging main panel with a new SqD 200a box, all up to code with a mains switch off and GFCI, for something like $1,200.

That seems expensive to me.  The electrician is NOT rewiring any of the wires running throughout your house.  He is just unhooking all the wires that are already at the panel.  And hooking them up to a new panel.  If your current panel works, what are you gaining from a new panel?  You could add a subpanel right next to your current panel and get more space for breakers, if that is your main reason.

Not knowing the specifics of where you live or what is involved, I can say that I live in Oregon and that price is pretty reasonable. I just replaced a panel for a friend who bought an older house. The list of parts needed to do the job for a 40 space panel and 30 circuit breakers was $500 from Home Depot. Not to mention the roughly 6 hours that it takes to do a nice clean job on something like this. 
I haven't worked full time as an electrician for 14 years now, but that price even back then was about right.
If you are in the Portland metro area, that price is pretty low as much of the larger industrial jobs tend to drive all prices higher than if you live further out.

The Home Depot website shows a Square D box meeting your description for $126.  It includes two 220 breakers and three 20 amp 110 breakers.  Home Depot sells the 20 amp 110 breakers for $4.10 each.  So add another 23 breakers to your total of 30, and its an extra $94.  I'm up to $220 in parts from the Home Depot website.  There is a LOT of difference between $220 and $500.  Does Oregon Home Depot double the price on everything at the cash register?  I'd suggest just using mail order.  I'd get rich doing panel replacements.  $1200 revenue.  $220 parts.  6 hours labor.  $163 per hour labor.  I could work 6 hours a day and make quarter million a year.  Not bad.

OK, maybe not rich.  But I could live pretty comfortably on a quarter million a year wages.

 

[RKA]

AFCI breakers will retail about $40 ea.  Figure half at wholesale.  I think you're looking at $500-600 in the panel and the rest in labor.

 

[Gregor]

If your current panel works, what are you gaining from a new panel?

A mains switch off and GFCI ?

Legislation here in germany is that you can keep electrical systems (within reason) as-is as long as you don't touch them, but the moment something is modified the whole system has to conform with the current regulations at completion.

This has up- and downsides, an upside is that problems don't accumulate (as they get removed whenever the system is touched), the downside is that some people are cheap so they skip maintenance (or installing a GFCI) as that would force them to redo a good part of (or the whole) deathtrap that is their current electrical system...

No idea how it works in other places.

 

[Rob Z]

Good morning Ryan

For what it is worth, same comment as JonnyRocket.  The price you got for a panel replacement seems pretty good, at least compared to jobs I GCed and brought in the sparkies to do the work.

 

[xedos]

$220 for parts isn't realistic.  That does not account for required AFCI circuits. That's another $150-$200 for the bedrooms right there.

If QO series is used;  $600 in parts could easily be reached.

Six hours for a panel replacement is quite ambitious. It's going to take at least an hour to go to the Home Depot to buy that $126 kit.  If it's a stock item.

At any rate, I think $1200 is reasonable for any neighborhood a Festool user is likely to reside in.

Permit costs weren't contemplated either.

 

[DeformedTree]

If your current panel works, what are you gaining from a new panel?

A mains switch off and GFCI ?

Legislation here in germany is that you can keep electrical systems (within reason) as-is as long as you don't touch them, but the moment something is modified the whole system has to conform with the current regulations at completion.

This has up- and downsides, an upside is that problems don't accumulate (as they get removed whenever the system is touched), the downside is that some people are cheap so they skip maintenance (or installing a GFCI) as that would force them to redo a good part of (or the whole) deathtrap that is their current electrical system...

No idea how it works in other places.

In the US if you touch something it has to be upgraded to current code*  (*for the most part/in theory).  So during remodels you don't have to tear apart the whole place, for the most part stuff is grandfathered in.  Knob and tube wiring is still legal and allowed to be repaired. But you can't create new knob and tube.  Some such situations are handled via insurance companies who won't insure or banks who won't give a loan on places with stuff like that.

If you add on to your 400 year old house, the addition has to meet the current code of your state, but the old structure can stay as is.

The mess that can form because of this is bad, but also tearing into old stuff would be a nightmare too.  I'm a do it right, replace it all unless what is there is really good. But I don't blame someone for not tearing apart their house to make minor changes. 

In the US with electrical, things have basically been unchanged since 1963 when ground wire/pin was mandated on all circuits.  Since then biggest changes was things like dedicated ground/neutral for things like dryers/ranges (3 prong to 4 prong connectors) and Arc Fault breakers most recently.  So as long as folks wired stuff correctly when built there isn't much of a need for major changes.  The new breakers though are definitely driving a need for improvements in panels.