Fastening 1/4 inch metal rod to wood

[Carpenter-Logan]

So i have been assigned to figure out how we are going to fasten copper rods to the out door patio hand rails the gaps are to wide open and go against code. the home owners do not want mess or anything but copper rods running horizontal. I was thinking of routering a channel for the rods to sit in flush with the face of the boards then router a space for  1/4 pipe brackets and use that to attach the wood. then take a piece of wood to cover the brackets. any other ideas?[attachimg=1]

 

[nclemmons]

Do you have any photos.  Not clear on your challenge.

 

[Carpenter-Logan]

Do you have any photos.  Not clear on your challenge.

the red lines are where we’d want the rods

 

[woodbutcherbower]

Are Munsen rings available in the US? Google is your friend. If they are - it's a quick, easy and visually attractive solution. Over here in the UK, they come in a bunch of different sizes from 12mm up to 54mm pipe diameter, in copper, brass, steel, chrome and various other finishes. The backplate simply screws to the timber, the rod/pipe is then clamped in the ring by two machine screws.

[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]

Good luck with it.
Kevin

Edit - just saw your picture. The rods contained within the posts (as opposed to those mounted on the face) are easy. Use a Forstner bit to drill a clean hole through each post, a few mm larger than the diameter of the rod. The holes in the fixed posts at either end need to be full-depth. You then cut the rod a little longer than the gap between the posts. Insert the rod so it goes all the way to the rear of the deep hole on the left-hand post, then lift it up, and insert the other end into the centre post, sliding it to the right until it's supported at either end. You'll need two rods per run - one for either side on the centre post. Secure in place using clear epoxy, injected into the holes before you place your rods.

I do this on a huge scale with green oak joists/beams which are retrofitted to stone walls. One wall slot is cut over-deep, so the joist can be lifted up, slid into the over-deep hole, and then slid out again whilst lining up the joist with the opposite hole. The net result is a joist which is equally supported at either end.

Edit again - how on earth is anyone going to possibly fall through those triangular holes ????? UK Building Regulations are strict, but our inspectors would laugh at that. If it's your work - lovely job by the way. Looks great.

 

[Cheese]

In most locales if the patio or deck is less than 30" above grade, hand rails are not required. So the large gap issue becomes a non-issue.  [smile]

Update: I answered this query before a picture was posted...pictures are important.

 

[rvieceli]

[member=75780]woodbutcherbower[/member] there is a rule that a 4 inch sphere must not be able to pass through any openings in the guard rail. The theory is that it prevents a small child from sticking their head through the opening putting their head through and their body on the opposite side, potentially causing them to accidently hang themselves.

I think that's also a part of the International Building Code as well.

Ron

 

[Bob D.]

I'm counting 7, maybe 8 risers on that stair so I think 30" is out the window.

Copper or brass is going to weather and require maintenance. I would use SS fasteners.

 

[woodbutcherbower]

[member=75780]woodbutcherbower[/member] there is a rule that a 4 inch sphere must not be able to pass through any openings in the guard rail. The theory is that it prevents a small child from sticking their head through the opening putting their head through and their body on the opposite side, potentially causing them to accidently hang themselves.

I think that's also a part of the International Building Code as well.

Ron

Ah OK Ron, I stand corrected. The only similar regulation over here relates to spindles on a staircase which must be no further apart than 100mm, also to prevent a child from getiing their head stuck. Our regs also stipulate measurement using a sphere - so the UK and the US are 100% on the same page. Thanks for the educational comment, it's appreciated.

 

[Oldwood]

I would mill pieces of fir slightly narrower than the vertical members left right and centre, drill them to accept the rods and attach to the railing.

You could use something other than fir of course for design purposes.

 

[luvmytoolz]

If I really had to I would use the stainless steel cabling instead of copper rods, but these probably may not be adequate.

Seeing as the woodwork is so nice however and any type of rods will ruin the aesthetics, what about making some fretwork like these to fit in each corner that would satisfy regs but not ruin the look?

It would be fairly trivial to create an MDF template, and then use a router to cut the profiles.

 

[hdv]

I fully agree with [member=75933]luvmytoolz[/member] ! That is a very nice idea to fill up the holes that are too large to conform to regulations and not ruin the great looks of those guard rails. If the customer doesn't like too much frills, you can always adjust the style of those fillers to something more to their liking.

Besides copper, even if coated, won't retain that nice sheen for long...

 

[luvmytoolz]

Another option would be to use stainless fencing wire, drill holes in a circular pattern through the center of each bit of timber, and feed the stainless steel wire through ala spiderweb style. Probably 3, maybe 4, revolutions of the wire might be enough to satisfy regs while still mostly keeping the wooden look.

Hope that makes sense! I know how it looks in my mind so I hope I articulated it well enough.

 

[Cheese]

My neighbor put on a new roof, dark brown architectural shingles with copper chimney flashing, copper valley pans, copper roof vents and copper gutters. It was absolutely stunning.  [big grin]  Within 3-4 years you couldn't tell, all of the copper turned a dirty brown color and blended into the shingles. He probably spent an extra $7K-$8K on the copper accessories but now you'd never know.

My personal experience with copper planters outdoors is that even if you clear coat them, they will turn color eventually, usually in a splotchy, uneven manner. This photo is about 2-3 years into the process.

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[peter halle]

After doing some research based on a nagging thought in the back of my mind, check with your local building department tome sure horizontal balusters are allowed.  Most localities have by now adopted a building code that allows horizontal balusters, BUT NOT all.  It used to be illegal for residential but legal for commercial.

Peter

 

[semenza]

    To me there is no reason that should not pass / meet code. At least for the intended purpose of the 4" sphere code. There is is plenty of open space to the side of each tight corner. If a head were to get "stuck" , then a simple movement left or right would unstick said head. Even an unintentional movement would free the head.  I think you need a new inspector or a variance / exception.

Seth

 

[squall_line]

    To me there is no reason that should not pass / meet code. At least for the intended purpose of the 4" sphere code. There is is plenty of open space to the side of each tight corner. If a head were to get "stuck" , then a simple movement left or right would unstick said head. Even an unintentional movement would free the head.  I think you need a new inspector or a variance / exception.

Seth

There is a separate 6" sphere requirement for triangle openings, usually for the railing/stair interface, but it may also apply here.

In any case, the intent of a railing opening code is not only to prevent strangulation, but also to prevent an actual fall.  The triangular openings on the image in question would allow a child or pet to climb and fall through quite easily.

 

[Koamolly]

There’s 4” X 4” stainless mesh for railings.  Can mount them to be removable.  There are other companies also…
https://architecturalhandrail.hollaender.com/infill-panels/wire-mesh/

 

[semenza]

    To me there is no reason that should not pass / meet code. At least for the intended purpose of the 4" sphere code. There is is plenty of open space to the side of each tight corner. If a head were to get "stuck" , then a simple movement left or right would unstick said head. Even an unintentional movement would free the head.  I think you need a new inspector or a variance / exception.

Seth

There is a separate 6" sphere requirement for triangle openings, usually for the railing/stair interface, but it may also apply here.

In any case, the intent of a railing opening code is not only to prevent strangulation, but also to prevent an actual fall.  The triangular openings on the image in question would allow a child or pet to climb and fall through quite easily.

OK, so if the minimum is 4" what is the maximum, 6" ?

Seth

 

[Steve1]

The only solution that I can think of, is to make a whole lot of inserts like this.  Likely, no two will be the same.
But I don't like the 1/4" copper.    That's electrical wire.  Nowhere near strong enough, in my opinion.
Maybe 3/4" stainless steel tubing.
Build just one for the homeowner to look at.
[attachimg=1]

 

[semenza]

    To me there is no reason that should not pass / meet code. At least for the intended purpose of the 4" sphere code. There is is plenty of open space to the side of each tight corner. If a head were to get "stuck" , then a simple movement left or right would unstick said head. Even an unintentional movement would free the head.  I think you need a new inspector or a variance / exception.

Seth

There is a separate 6" sphere requirement for triangle openings, usually for the railing/stair interface, but it may also apply here.

In any case, the intent of a railing opening code is not only to prevent strangulation, but also to prevent an actual fall.  The triangular openings on the image in question would allow a child or pet to climb and fall through quite easily.

OK, so if the minimum is 4" what is the maximum, 6" ?

Seth

OK, so after a little checking it is actually the other way around? 4" is the maximum. I had thought it was the minimum because I thought the idea was to prevent a head going in and then not being able to be pulled back out. Sort of a one way trap situation.

I think there are more confused people out there than me. Because of poor descriptions via the "grapevine" . Wrong wording when someone talks about it such as  "a 4" ball has to fit through"  or "it gets tested with a 4" ball (but no further explanation )............ etc. Which is not accurate at all.

Anyway , back to the problem. I think that ^ insert idea has merit. It would look purposeful and decent too.

Seth