Feedback Please - Sawstop Jobsite or Bosch Reaxx?

[ChuckM]

Hi Dan,

I am glad that you'd consider the prof. cabinet saw model, regardless of your final decision.

Yes, if I had more than one 220v power socket in my garage, I'd have taken the 220v option with my SS (I have to use the only 220v socket for a heater). Now and then, when I use the SS with the dust collector and with other power appliances turned on (lights, radio, etc.), I could trip the breaker (and an annoying run to the basement!). So go with the 220v, if you can. (It can be rewired to 110v, I think (but better double check that), if one day you need to move and can only have 110v power supply.)

My SUV is a Pilot and the other car is also a mid-size SUV (but not as big as the Pilot). They have "lived" together with the SS (as well as many other machines) just fine.

The motor hangs out on the back of a contractor saw. If it takes up almost the same amount of space as a cabinet saw in the back, I wouldn't be surprised. I used to have a Delta and then a Ridgid contractor saw in the same spot where my SS now parks. The SS is much wider than my previous saws, but not in depth.

SS runs promotions often (at least twice a year?) in which you can choose to get a free hydraulic mobile base or a free above-the-table dust collection system. Call SawStop or Woodcraft to see when they are doing the next promo.

Finally, allow me to say something about two oft-quoted comments about Bosch & SS:

1) Legal suit between them: No one can predict its outcome and whatever it is, unlikely it will affect SawStop's service or existence (remember SS is the plaintiff here, not the defendant). Bosch is not in the cabinet saw market while SS's best seller (as I understand it) is not -- yet -- in the jobsite segment. The suit is a non-factor for me as a consumer and woodworker.

In fact, legal disputes could happen to any other tools or products (cell phones, service providers, etc. -- Visa and Walmart are even at war with each other now in Canada).

2) I see it a benefit that if I triggered the SS, I'd ruin my blade. It gives me an awareness and a reminder that every cut must be handled as safely as possible. By the way, there was (still is?) a belief by some SS naysayers that the SS technology would lower one's guard in using a tablesaw or other machines. There is no empirical evidence whatsoever to support that, of course. I have not changed how I use my machines since I bought the SS. I have had zero accidents or close calls with my SS. I look at SS as insurance and with any other types of accident insurance, I would never want to see any of such insurance coverage used. The quality of the saw pays off for the premium price I paid for the saw. The safety feature is a bonus.

I have not met any SS owner or serious user who isn't happy with the Prof. model (I used to work at a place where SSs are sold). I'd start with the above-table dust collection, the mobile base (indust), the upgraded fence, the extension table*, outfeed table*, and an extra zero clearance insert* (and also the cross-cut table, if I had the space).  (*- you can build these yourself, if you prefer.) Starting with a SS jobsite or contractor saw and replacing it with a SS Prof. cabinet saw later would end up costing you more ... plus you'd be using a saw that is not as robust in quality.

I hope you will have a very enjoyable retirement in the shop.

Chuck
PS I am always mindful about dust (my lungs don't like it and neither do my cars). I have used other after-market above-the-table dust collection systems and none is close to SS's in terms of effectiveness and ease of use. You don't need to adjust the overhead collection. Of course, you can't use it when making dado cuts or narrow rip cuts (you'll still have the under-the-table dust collection).

 

[bruegf]

Hi Dan,

I have the SS contractor saw and have no regrets or complaints.  With the 36" fence option and the optional cast iron wings, the thing is rock solid and weighs nearly 400 lbs but is easy to move around on the SS mobile base.  It's a very nice compromise between a cabinet saw and a job site saw and gives you the quality and safety SS is known for.

I've added the SS dust collection blade guard and strongly recommend it.  Dust collection was good before but is now excellent except when shaving less than a blade width of material from an edge.  Also added the Wixey digital readout and also strongly recommend it.

Fred

 

[ChuckM]

  Also added the Wixey digital readout and also strongly recommend it.

Fred

Yes, a digital angle gauge, and, while we're on the third-party accessories, a Grr-riper that will allow you cut thin strips (1/8") or resaw (up to 4" to 6" tall?) VERY safely and consistently.

Chuck

 

[grbmds]

[member=6717]Dan Clark[/member] Sure. If you can fit the SS cabinet size saw in your shop, go for it. The only reason I opted for the jobsite size was because it is extremely difficult to get a 400 pound piece of equipment into a basement shop with only stairs to get it down there. There is no question in my mind that, from the standpoint of power, table size, maybe accuracy, and probably dust collection, the cabinet saw would be better. If you can do the 220V professional, that's even better; just more power and you would never find anything that this saw couldn't handle. Throw in the safety and the saw is a lifetime saw for sure. I am retired, love woodworking, but we may move some day and, with all the difficulties I had getting a Jet 8" jointer into the basement I would never have attempted the SS cabinet or professional saw, but that, in fact, is the only reason I went with the jobsite saw. If I were you I wouldn't skip the contractor saw though. I would think (have heard) the dust collection, table size, and overall performance would not be as good as the cabinet or professional models. Good luck. It's a nice decision to have to make. They can be difficult sometimes, but I always resolve them with a spreadsheet with every plus and minus listed for each.

 

[JimD]

I have not used either of the saws you are looking at but my table saw is a Ryobi BT3100.  It has a 15A universal motor with belt drive and a small table.  I've built half a dozen or more bedroom sets with it so far.  Lots of other furniture too.  I admit I kind of want a hybrid cabinet saw but the little Ryobi does not limit my work.  It would just be a bit easier sometimes, I think, with a "better" saw.  I suspect that either of the portables you are considering would be similar.  Good enough you can do quality work but not as capable as a hybrid or cabinet saw. 

I don't think it's necessary to have a 3hp or bigger table saw either.  I cut 3.5 inches deep in hardwood sometimes with my Ryobi.  I have to use a clean and sharp ripping blade (I use a 24 tooth Freud) but if I do, the feed rate isn't bad and the saw does the job.  The 3hp saw might do it with a combination blade but that isn't worth messing with 220V to me. 

With respect to the lawsuit, you also have to consider that Bosch might win.  They have claimed that SS violated their patents.  I think that is too uncertain to factor in.  Bosch would also have the option of buying SS if they loose.  SS couldn't buy Bosch. 

 

[Michael Kellough]

I have not used either of the saws you are looking at but my table saw is a Ryobi BT3100.  It has a 15A universal motor with belt drive and a small table.  I've built half a dozen or more bedroom sets with it so far.  Lots of other furniture too.  I admit I kind of want a hybrid cabinet saw but the little Ryobi does not limit my work.  It would just be a bit easier sometimes, I think, with a "better" saw.  I suspect that either of the portables you are considering would be similar.  Good enough you can do quality work but not as capable as a hybrid or cabinet saw. 

I don't think it's necessary to have a 3hp or bigger table saw either.  I cut 3.5 inches deep in hardwood sometimes with my Ryobi.  I have to use a clean and sharp ripping blade (I use a 24 tooth Freud) but if I do, the feed rate isn't bad and the saw does the job.  The 3hp saw might do it with a combination blade but that isn't worth messing with 220V to me. 

With respect to the lawsuit, you also have to consider that Bosch might win.  They have claimed that SS violated their patents.  I think that is too uncertain to factor in.  Bosch would also have the option of buying SS if they loose.  SS couldn't buy Bosch.

I've read that Bosch claimed SS never should have received some of their patents but not that claim.

 

[ChuckM]

I wish Bosch and others had done that and bought the SS technology when it was developed. Had that happened, SS would not have been born as a saw making company and the lawsuit between SS and Bosch would not have taken place. AND, every new saw user today would have benefited from such chain of event as all new saws in the market would have been fitted with the SS technology.

Oh well, it is still never too late -- if the price is right to both parties. But given SS's success in the market, the price would have to be a lot steeper than Day 1 when the technology was first offered to the major saw makers.

Seriously? SS is now a defendant in the lawsuit?!  Last time I heard, SS was sued by some "SS saw owner" because the safety device failed to trigger and someone got his fingers cut off! This is hilarious, to say the least.

Chuck

 

[pixelated]

FWIW, regarding Bosch support, I have several of their tools, the biggies being the table saw and a miter saw.
I've never had a reason to contact them for a defect or performance problem. But I did email them earlier this year to find out which of their vacuum adaptors I'd need to connect the miter saw to the CT with a 36mm hose.
They got an answer back to me in about a day, I ordered up the adaptor they recommended and it works perfectly.
I half expected a formula answer of "we can only tell you about our products, blah, blah, blah", but instead gave me a real answer quickly.

 

[grbmds]

I used a Ryobi BT3000 for 15 years before I bought my SS Jobsite saw. The BT3000 certainly did everything I asked of it, even cutting 4 X 4 pieces of hard maple glued up (cutting from both sides). Just for the record, my SS Jobsite saw does a much better job than the BT3000; more accurate, more power, significantly better dust collection (no matter what I did to assist with the BT3000), the safety of the blade brake, and all that in a smaller footprint and the capability to fold it up and move it out of the way. I'm sure that a SS cabinet or professional saw would be a much better choice than any jobsite saw. However, the SS jobsite saw is a great saw and serves all my needs just like the older saw did, but better and safer.

 

[RKA]

I'm thinking about your situation a little more, and while the cabinet saw is appealing, I'm not sure it's the best solution.  It appears the little space you have in front of the cars is multi-use.  Meaning you can set up the MFT, planer or table saw as needed.  And when not needed they can be folded and stored off to the side or on a shelf.  Is that a fair assessment?  The second concern is do you work with the cars inside the garage?  If so, that extra few inches a larger saw occupies becomes that much more significant.  And what is the plan for dust collection?  This could further complicate things.

To some degree the job site saw and reaxx still have a sizable footprint when folded up, and they will not tuck away off the floor, so you're still committing floor space permanently.  And when in use, the saw plus stand seem to take up nearly the same floor space as a cabinet saw, but still probably less. 

Much as I would be tempted to get a cabinet saw, I think the two saws you initially targeted and some clever reorganization would be the better choice.  Save every precious inch of floor space you can and leave the door open to some form of dust collection beyond just the Festool DE (which is less than ideal for a saw).

Yesterday I had a chance to fondle the sawstop and reaxx at Tool Nut.  I really liked the fence and build of the reaxx.  The sawstop just felt flimsy and cheap by comparison.  Granted that perception may have little to do with how it performs (which I was not able to compare).  With the upcoming holiday tool sales, you should be able to find the reaxx for $1300 or so, so a little cheaper as well.

 

[grbmds]

[member=6717]Dan Clark[/member] Sure. If you can fit the SS cabinet size saw in your shop, go for it. The only reason I opted for the jobsite size was because it is extremely difficult to get a 400 pound piece of equipment into a basement shop with only stairs to get it down there. There is no question in my mind that, from the standpoint of power, table size, maybe accuracy, and probably dust collection, the cabinet saw would be better. If you can do the 220V professional, that's even better; just more power and you would never find anything that this saw couldn't handle. Throw in the safety and the saw is a lifetime saw for sure. I am retired, love woodworking, but we may move some day and, with all the difficulties I had getting a Jet 8" jointer into the basement I would never have attempted the SS cabinet or professional saw, but that, in fact, is the only reason I went with the jobsite saw. If I were you I wouldn't skip the contractor saw though. I would think (have heard) the dust collection, table size, and overall performance would not be as good as the cabinet or professional models. Good luck. It's a nice decision to have to make. They can be difficult sometimes, but I always resolve them with a spreadsheet with every plus and minus listed for each.

Correction: I meant I "would" skip the SS contractor's saw for the reasons I gave. In terms of space, that's completely your decision. In my shop, though, I put everything on wheels, including my router table, bandsaw, jointer, planer, workbench, and some other work tables. I plan to put my MFT on wheels this coming year. This gives me the capability to move the tool I'm using into an open area while the others are off to the side. That's why I bought the jobsite saw; so I can bring it out when I need it and put it out of the way when I don't. The plus is that, based on my use so far, it's a great saw also. I agree that moving tools back and forth is not necessarily an efficient way to work, but I am into woodworking just for the satisfaction and relaxation of it (when I'm not making mistakes). My shop didn't get to where it is in one shot and I am constantly thinking about ways to move things around so that I have more flexibility. If you need the flexibility of having space for other things when you need it or have limited space to dedicate to woodworking, the ability to fold your saw up and get it out of the way is extremely useful, especially when the saw is a good saw also. If you don't need that, a larger saw like the SS cabinet or professional saw will definitely get you an upgraded table saw.

 

[Dan Clark]

Chuck, Fred, grbmds, Jim, Michael, pixelated, Raj,  Randy,

Hi.  Thanks for the additional feedback. 

In general, my opinion has not changed - if I can stuff the Sawstop "Professional" Cabinet saw in the garage, that's the one I'm going to get.  While the Reaxx and Sawstop Jobsite saws look like great saws, they don't have the appeal of the Sawstop Cabinet saw.  While the Cabinet saw is bigger in use and that's a concern, I think I can make it work.  After examining them carefully, the jobsite saws don't take up much less space than the cabinet saw when stored given the unique configuration of my garage.  Please take a look at the first 10 minutes of my garage video to see my "shop" and its  configuration : Garage Video, and let me know what you think.

• Although 220V would be nice, there is only one 220V circuit in the garage and that powers that heater.  Apparently adding the Sawstop to that circuit would not be a good idea given that there could a change in voltage or amperage when the heater kicks on.  I.e. the saw would take a dim view of that.  So 110V is probably my choice.  While this may not be as good as the 220V model, it's several hundred dollars cheaper and makes it easier to auto start the saw by powering it off of the CT26.
  
• Great point about the promotion.  That would save $300.
  
• Although the lawsuit is an interesting issue, it probably won't affect Sawstop except for more competition from Bosch.
  
• Since I would be buying the least expensive professional and the industrial wheels, the outfeed table is not compatible.  That's a minus.  So I'll have to build a folding outfeed table.    That said, given that there is about a 6-7" space between the cabinet and the back wheels, the folded outfeed table would not take any storage space.
  
• While maybe not as good as a large DC, my CT should provide decent dust collection, especially since I have a splitter setup to use two hoses - above the table and under the table.
  
• Originally I thought the Contractor saw was the perfect compromise between the Cabinet and Jobsite saw.  After measuring, it turns out that is about 3 inches deeper than the Cabinet saw.  The bigger issue is that the ICS mobile base is not available on the Cabinet saw.  All ICS wheels rotate freely, which means that the cabinet saw can be pulled straight out and pivoted freely.  Given my space constraints, that's a major issue.  The ICS wheels are a must have for me.
  
• The Wixey readout looks very interesting.  The base model fence is not as nice as the fences on the higher-end models.  Will the Wixey fit the fence on the base model Cabinet saw?
  
• Grr-ripers?  I love my Grr-ripers!  Please check out my video at 10:31.    [smile]
  
• Getting the Cab saw up our steep driveway and unloaded into the garage might be very interesting.  I'm hiring a guy to do that. 
  
• Regarding the Cabinet saw vs Jobsite saw, I think the Reaxx or Sawstop jobsite saws would meet most of my needs for now.  But I'm thinking long term.
  
• Wheels?  Oh yeah!  Except for Kapex, everything is on wheels - even the MIG welder.  (I'm selling that.  Any takers?)  And when the Kapex is lifted, it is placed on the rolling metal table (in video to the back left of the garage) and moved to its stand.  Everything in the shop except for the MFT can be stored away.  I would put the MFT on wheels, but it's semi-permanent in its current location given the amount that I use it.  May still do that, though. 
  

Here is the Sawstop Pro configuration that I'm looking at:

Description	Cost
SS Professional, 110V (PCS175), 30"	$2,299
ICS Mobile Base	$299
Dust Collection Blade Guard	$139
Standard brake cartridge	$69
Dado Brake Cartridge	$89
Dado Zero Clearance Insert	$39
Total Cost	$2,934

I'll probably buy from Woodcraft.  Woodcraft doesn't charge shipping for the Sawstop saws because they sell so many of them.  I.e. it's not a special order.  So that saves about $300.  If I can hit the Sawstop sale, that would lop another $300 off. 

I'm still pondering, but the choice is becoming clearer. 

Again, many thanks for your help.

Best regards,

Dan.

 

[rvieceli]

Dan, you might want to consider adding another 220 circuit to your space. Long term wise it might be a good investment.

Ron

 

[bruegf]

Dan,

I'm pretty sure that you won't be able to power the 110V SS through a CT.  My contractor saw has the same 1-3/4 hp motor that the 110V cabinet saw uses and it needed a 20 amp breaker.  Before I ran a separate circuit for the saw I would occasionally blow the 15 amp breaker that only had 4 fluorescent lights and the saw on it when I put the saw under a heavier load.

Given your constraints I would either opt for the 110V cabinet saw or if space is a concern look at the contractor (not the job site) saw.  Both are very good saws and should meet the needs of even a serious hobbyist.

Fred

 

[Bohdan]

Although 220V would be nice, there is only one 220V circuit in the garage and that powers that heater.

Have an electrician fit a contactor to the circuit that disables the heater whenever the saw is running.

 

[rljatl]

Another thing to consider is that the wheels on one end of some cabinet saws do not swivel.  This can make it more difficult to pull the saw out from a tight storage place.

Also, you may be able to run the wire for another 220 outlet yourself and then have an electrician come out to inspect it and to do the final hook up to the circuit breaker.  You can save some money that way.  Sometimes you can run the wire behind the baseboard.

 

[RKA]

A couple additions or affirmations:
1. You cannot run this saw on the CT.  It needs a dedicated 110v 20A breaker, so you may be looking at electrical work anyway. 
2. The sawstop promotion includes the professional rolling base, not the industrial.  The other option is the overarm dust collection which you don't want.  You could sell the prof base to recoup some $.
3. The dust collection blade guard was included with the 220v professional saws.  That narrows the price difference between the two and if you're already on the hook for electrical work...
3. The industrial base has 4 swiveling casters, it's very nice!  Make sure you get the correct part number for the professional saw.  They make two different industrial bases with slight difference to accommodate the smaller footprint of the prof saws.

I'll send you a PM on another tidbit that may be helpful.

 

[ChuckM]

• [*]  So I'll have to build a folding outfeed table.    That said, given that there is about a 6-7" space between the cabinet and the back wheels, the folded outfeed table would not take any storage space.

-- Yes, you can build your own, which I did. The outfeed table is used when you pull out the tablesaw to support long stock.

• While maybe not as good as a large DC, my CT should provide decent dust collection, especially since I have a splitter setup to use two hoses - above the table and under the table.

You can use the CT26 (+dust deputy), which was my dust collection arrangement,  until I got a dust collector. But SawStop needs to be plugged in another wall socket, not inot the CT26. Of course, a 1.5HP or 2HP dust collector is far better. See pic.

•   The ICS wheels are a must have for me.

-- Agreed and that's the case for me, too. For the professional model, you would get a conversion kit to modify your prof. base to become an indust base. The four swivel castors allow you to move the saw with EASE. 

• The Wixey readout looks very interesting.  The base model fence is not as nice as the fences on the higher-end models.  Will the Wixey fit the fence on the base model Cabinet saw?
  

-- The gauge I referred to is this one:http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=67350&cat=1,43513

• Getting the Cab saw up our steep driveway and unloaded into the garage might be very interesting.  I'm hiring a guy to do that. 
  

-- The prof saw comes in a pallet and it is NOT 400 lbs in one piece! The components are in several packages and the heavy steel wings are NOT attached. You only need one able-bodied person (my neighbor in my case) to help stand the main saw up and onto the mobile base. The manual recommends three persons, though. That's it. You can do the rest all by yourself (I'm only 5'7" and 135 lbs and did the whole assembly myself). Many people have their SSs in their basements and the most heavy stuff is the main body (motor, tunnion, etc.). They attached the wings and everything else after the main units were in the basements.

Happy shopping,

Chuck

 

[Elmar50]

Like you, I initially was going to go the SS :Jobsite vs Reaxx route. When looking at the machines in the store, I just did not feel the Jobsite would be the best choice for what I use a table saw- ripping long and/or thick hardwood boards. The cabinet saw was too heavy and expensive, but the contractor's model was only $200 more. I was able to drive home c the box in my Saab 9-3 and only needed my neighbor's good help for a couple of things in assembling. The smaller- and more important- shorter track is one of the things I really like about the saw. The fence is just fine for my purposes. Put the wheelbase on it and it will be much more movable and compact than the cabinet saw. The saw has no problem with 9ft long 8/4 Eastern Maple which is the hardest thing I've thrown at it.

 

[Dan Clark]

Ron, Fred, bohdon, RobBob, Raj, Chuck, Elmar,

More great feedback.  Awesome!!!

• Adding another 220 circuit?  That's an interesting idea, but that could be a serious hassle given that both panels are full.  I have to research that more.
  
   
• Dedicated circuit - Given that using the CT with other tools has blown a 15A circuit in the garage, I had a 20A, 110V circuit when I remodeled the garage.  This circuit is dedicated to the CT and other tools that use the CT's dust collection.  That includes my current DW745, router table, planer, and bandsaw.  So far I haven't had any problems.  Check out the Garage Video at the 6 minute mark and you'll see a surface mount box on the wall behind the saw.
  
• Contractor or Cabinet saw - I seriously considered the jobsite saw until I measured and found that it was 3 inches deeper than the cabinet saw.  However, the clincher for the cabinet saw was the Industrial Cabinet Saw Mobile Base.  It turns out that Sawstop has three bases - one each for the Contractor saw, Pro saw, and Industrial saw.  The "Industrial Cabinet Saw Mobile Base with PCS Conversion Kit" can be used on the Pro. 
  
  What is different is that the Industrial mobile base has four rotating casters instead of two and it is pumped up via a hydraulic foot pump.  The four rotating castors means that I can pull the cabinet saw straight out of it's cubby between the lawn mower and systainer stacks.  The other two mobile bases have two rotating castors only, which means that the saw would have to be "walked" out of it's cubby.  In addition, industrial base can be rotated around it's base while the others would have be something like three-point turns.  Given the tight space, I'm afraid I'd bash something. 
  
  Unfortunately, the industrial base fits only the cabinet saws, and not the contractor and jobsite saw.    I tried all three at Seattle Woodcraft.  The industrial mobile base is EXTREMELY nice.  A few strokes on the hydraulic pedal and the saw moves very easily - little more than a finger push.  (I never thought I'd fall in love with a mobile base! [smile])  That alone is what makes a cabinet saw doable for my garage shop,  Here are pics of the three bases...
  
  Contractor Saw Mobile Base:
  
  
  
  
  PCS Professional Saw Mobile Base:
  
  
  
  
  Industrial Cabinet Saw Mobile Base with PCS Conversion Kit:
  
  
  
  
• Promotions - It's unfortunate that only the Professional base is offered with a promotion.  As I mentioned above, given my space constraints, the industrial base on the only option for me.  And thanks for the heads up about the right part number.  At first I didn't notice that two different part numbers. 
  
• CT with cyclone - it turns out that I have a small Clearview cyclone that works pretty well. It's especially useful with the planer.  Here's a pic:
  
  
  
  
  
• Outfeed table - Chuck, I'd love to see a pic of yours.  If you have one of course.
  
• Wixey gauge - It turns out that I have that type of Wixey, although the Lee Valley looks more useful because it has magnets on three sides.
  
• Saw packaging and weight - Great feedback on the packaging.  That eases my mind tremendously.    Since I have a chain hoist in exactly the right spot, I may be able to do it all.    (At 5'5", I've always been envious of tall guys like you Chuck!)  [big grin]

Again, many thanks for the great feedback!

Best regards,

Dan.