Felder "PCS", competing technology to SawStop

[Tom the Remodeler]

I saw this video dropped overnight:
=0s

What appeals to me:
-- No contact necessary to trigger the safety system
-- No damage to the blade, looks like you can reset the system in a matter of seconds
-- I don't see a reason why the technology wouldn't eventually filter down to the Felder and Hammer lines
-- It's nice to see the finger-sensing technology in a sliding saw

 

[rmhinden]

What appeals to me:
-- No contact necessary to trigger the safety system
-- No damage to the blade, looks like you can reset the system in a matter of seconds
-- I don't see a reason why the technology wouldn't eventually filter down to the Felder and Hammer lines
-- It's nice to see the finger-sensing technology in a sliding saw

That's very cool, appears to be a nice improvement over the Sawstop technology. 

I have a Sawstop PCS that I am very happy with.    I think it will be a while before this gets into the Felder and Hammer lines, but I do hope at some point this kind of technology will be in all table saws. 

Bob

 

[jonathan-m]

-- I don't see a reason why the technology wouldn't eventually filter down to the Felder and Hammer lines

The key word here being eventually.
I think it can easily take 15 years or more for this to trickle down to the lower end machines.
It's too much of a unique selling point to upsell you to the higher end format range of saws.
But i do hope i'm wrong In any case im very happy to see technology is able to provide us with safer equipment.

 

[Bob D.]

"I think it can easily take 15 years or more for this to trickle down to the lower end machines."

No doubt there, look how long it took to get US table saw manufacturers to put decent guards and riving knives on saws, even though they had been required for years elsewhere. And that only happened because they were forced to do so by regulation.

SawStop has been around for about 20 years now I think and not mainstream yet but it's getting there.

 

[Gregor]

"I think it can easily take 15 years or more for this to trickle down to the lower end machines."

No doubt there, look how long it took to get US table saw manufacturers to put decent guards and riving knives on saws, even though they had been required for years elsewhere. And that only happened because they were forced to do so by regulation.

Introducing a regulation of 'for selling product type x feature y is required from date z onward' could speed that up...

.. or lead to the complete demise of products, like the CMS where certain new regulations made it impossible to attach the now needed stickers (eg. for where to carry that machine) on the base in a compatible manner as their location would differ depending on what plate you have installed.
That's at least what the festool rep at the last roadshow gave me as the main reason for CMS being discontinued.

 

[ben_r_]

Wow! Now if they or someone could put this technology in a similarly priced option to a SawStop PCS, we'd have something!

That said, I hope that someday when SawStop redoes their mechanism so the blade isnt damaged those of us that own one are offered some kind of retrofit kit to upgrade to the new mechanism!

 

[Birdhunter]

If my SawStop prevents me from losing fingers, the cost of replacing blade and cartridge is nothing. I’d like to know what sensing technology is being employed by Felder.

 

[ben_r_]

If my SawStop prevents me from losing fingers, the cost of replacing blade and cartridge is nothing. I’d like to know what sensing technology is being employed by Felder.

Yea, thats the old way of thinking when SawStop was the only game in town. Thats not the case anymore and now we should want them to improve their technology and come out with a method that does not damage the blade like their competitors have done. Their technology is approaching 20 years old. Its time.
And if you watch the video it shows a bit about how the Felder solution works.

 

[Svar]

If my SawStop prevents me from losing fingers, the cost of replacing blade and cartridge is nothing.

True. However, other things being equal would't you prefer less destructive technology?

 

[Birdhunter]

All things being equal, I want to trust my fingers to a proven technology. SawStop has been in the field for years and that is comforting.

I’ve owned my SawStop for a long time and triggered the stop only once. That was a semi dumb mistake with my fingers well away from the blade.

If a better technology comes along, I’m open.

 

[ChuckM]

The PCS is a better technology without doubt, though we don't know its cost implications vs SawStop's. Unless the new technology is price-competitive, SawStop still has a prolonged future.

The video doesn't seem to give any details about its sensing method.

 

[Cheese]

PCS is a better technology...heck the Bosch technology was better even though SawStop
successfully suppressed that incremental advance.  [mad] [mad] [mad]

It kind of reminds me of 1958 when windshield washers were options and vacuum operated wipers were the norm.

Let’s give SawStop its due and then just move forward. We all deserve that step forward for safety considerations. Saving a finger shouldn’t be held hostage for $$$.

 

[threesixright]

All things being equal, I want to trust my fingers to a proven technology. SawStop has been in the field for years and that is comforting.

I’ve owned my SawStop for a long time and triggered the stop only once. That was a semi dumb mistake with my fingers well away from the blade.

If a better technology comes along, I’m open.

There are certain conditions where the operator needs to switch it off, because it could trigger falsely. So I would prefer the Felder solution which is always on.

 

[greg mann]

I pestered my Dad to put seatbelts in a 1961 Ford Falcon. They were about 4 bucks a set at Sears if I recall. A year later one of those sets, without doubt, saved my life. By today’s standards they were pretty crude but they worked for me. Yes, we should give SawStop their due, and we should embrace improvements as they come. One day, the technology will be widespread and probably taken for granted.

 

[Alanbach]

I don’t mean to be a jerk but aren’t we comparing apples and elephants here. I think some of these Format saws are over $50,000. Comparing tech that goes into a high end industrial saw like these Format saws and the Sawstop offering for the general consumer market that sell saws in a price point that is well less than one tenth the price does not seem practical or even reasonable to me. Even if they get the tech into the Hammer and Felder lines those saws are not comparable to any of the saws in the Sawstop line. Either from a price point perspective or a form factor perspective.

Sawstop invented an innovation and spent the money and effort to bring it to market in a high quality product line. As I understand it they worked hard for years to license that tech to every major manufacturer of table saws in the US and they got shown the door by all of them. As far as Bosch is concerned I am not a patent attorney but I am pretty sure that process is very technical and that the courts would have never prohibited them from selling their product in the entire US without some real prof that they were infringing on Sawstop’s patents.

I want innovation and safety as much or more than anyone but you have to do it right by creating competitive value for consumers. If you don’t think that Delta, Jet, Powermatic, Grizzly, etc. haven’t tried to create competing technology to allow them to compete with Sawstop I think that you are probably crazy. The truth is that they messed up by not making a deal with Sawstop years ago and now they and us are paying for it.

 

[ChuckM]

Either from a price point perspective or a form factor perspective.

I know with close to certainty that by the time (and if) the PCS technology is implemented at the mass level (cabinet saws and below), I'd be long gone in terms of woodworking. So I'll rely on the SawStop for the added level of safety.

I was rewatching a Sam Maloof video, and noticed for the first time, that one of his fingers was cut from the top.

 

[Cheese]

Sawstop invented an innovation and spent the money and effort to bring it to market in a high quality product line. As I understand it they worked hard for years to license that tech to every major manufacturer of table saws in the US and they got shown the door by all of them. As far as Bosch is concerned I am not a patent attorney but I am pretty sure that process is very technical and that the courts would have never prohibited them from selling their product in the entire US without some real prof that they were infringing on Sawstop’s patents.

This whole saga needs to be separated into two tales. The first tale is the finger saving issue which was initially an innocent concern and was the immediate focus of the company.

The second tale is how do we turn the finger saving issue into a money producing issue.
Unfortunately, SawStop decided to hijack the potential licensing process and it was their focus to force all table saw manufacturers through an act of congress, to mandate that SawStop was the only go-to preferred solution for all manufactured saws.

To add insult to injury, SawStop then demanded a 20% premium for their technology.

The SawStop road is a bumpy one and it's a good thing that we finally have S Gass out of the equation. Good riddance...

 

[Birdhunter]

It will be interesting to see if the Felder technology makes its way into tool affordable by more than a very few. In the meantime, I will enjoy my awesome SawStop and try not to trigger the safety device. I find having the safety device actually makes me more careful.

 

[Steve1]

I could not find a good description of how it works, but Felder web site says it "triggers at the speed of light".    So figuring this is an optical sensor ?    I would have concerns of an optical sensor in an inherently dusty environment, but time will tell.

 

[ChuckM]

Snip.

I find having the safety device actually makes me more careful.

This was so true of the many SawStop owners and users I spoke to, debunking the myth that some non-SawStop users have about the safety technology as inviting carelessness. Seat belts and other modern safety devices don't invite people to drive recklessly, do they?