Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System

[GoingMyWay]

I came across a post on a Facebook woodworking group that showed this new safety technology:https://www.felder-group.com/fg-en/pcs.html.  It's supposed to be available on the Kappa550 table saw in 2020 in time for the IWF show in Atlanta.

I don't know exactly how it works, but it sounds very promising especially because it's non destructive and doesn't even require replacement cartridges like the Bosch Reaxx.

 

[ChuckM]

Looks promising! If such technology can be used on cabinet saws and smaller table saws, both SawStop (and Reaxx after the patents expire) will be in trouble.

Even more promising is if it can be adapted to other machines like the mitre saws, bandsaws etc., like this Australian product:

 

[GoingMyWay]

Felder indicated on their Facebook page that they would be offering it on the "full line of machines" but "it will take some time."

 

[ChuckM]

The sooner the better (I am a SawStop owner) because competition like that (hopefully) will either bring the SawStop more affordable to all woodworkers (they will be forced to lower their prices in time to compete), or will bring a new kind of safety protection for other machines. It is a win for all woodworkers.

 

[jeh]

The sooner the better (I am a SawStop owner) because competition like that (hopefully) will either bring the SawStop more affordable to all woodworkers (they will be forced to lower their prices in time to compete), or will bring a new kind of safety protection for other machines. It is a win for all woodworkers.

Discussion of price (and lowering) are absurd in this forum. It is highly unlikely that there will be competition between Felder and SawStop or even Bosch who moved their Reaxx into the top of their price list. Competition is good and other solutions for blade protection were inevitable, but my last concern is and will continue to be price. A race to the bottom is something I don't want when safety is involved. The more interesting improvements will be for other tools like Felder appears to be doing.

BTW the last thing on your mind is the cost of a replacement cartridge or blade when you still have you realize you still have your  finger(s). I know as my SawStop saved my thumb (and possibly more). Rushed cut at the end of the day. I had made it more than 20 years without a mistake on the table saw other than a kickback or two.

 

[ChuckM]

Price is one of the main reasons why many woodworkers today do not own a SawStop saw (despite it being the #1 selling cabinet saw these days in N.A.; by 2014, 50,000 SS were sold). We cannot discuss safety in isolation. It is not about racing to the bottom, but about SawStop or Reaxx (in due course) competing against a new, perhaps more powerful competitor.

I am not talking about competition between Felder (sliding saw manufacturer) and SawStop (cabinet and smaller saw manufacturer). Having learned their costly lesson, other table saw makers (presumably wiser now) would be more than willing to adopt Felder's innovation if it is technically feasible, and if Felder licenses the technology to them. The competition will be between SawStop and other table saw makers who are licensed to use the Felder's innovation.

Between replacing a cartridge/damaged blade (SawStop method), and a 15-second reset (Felder's, details unknown yet, presumably at no extra cost to the user per activation), a future cabinet saw buyer would prefer the latter, every other consideration being the same. This would be why SawStop will have to reduce its prices (profit margins accordingly) to compete. We are not talking about SawStop compromising its safety feature or sawing quality given a reduction in price.

Of course, if other table saw makers incorporated the Felder's technology in a poorly built saw, SawStop would have much less to worry about. But I don't anticipate that to be the case. I spent a lot on my SawStop not solely for its safety feature, but more for its sawing quality and repeatability.

 

[BoulderAv]

Felder makes very nice tools and for a more boutique industrial brand their prices are not absurd. The real question with what Felder is doing is if that can they get into their Felder and Hammer lines in a timely manner. Once it reaches the level of the Felder K700 SawStop will need to start worrying if they have been resting on their laurels too much.

 

[Svar]

The system appears to be non-contact, i.e. reacts on approach before the blade is touched. This is an advantage over the current tech.

 

[GoingMyWay]

I thought I read it might work on infrared (though now I can't find where I saw that)?

Since it sounds like it's non-destructive it doesn't seem like having a false trigger of the safety mechanism would be that bad.

 

[ChuckM]

When more information is released, we may find out whether the new technology can handle wet wood or metal without turning off the safety feature which is required under the SawStop system.

 

[promark747]

I'm curious how it would detect proximity...do you have to wear a special glove?  Obviously the contact system (Sawstop) wouldn't work with a meat cutting saw, but I have no idea how this would differentiate between a piece of meat and your hand.

 

[ChuckM]

I'm curious how it would detect proximity...do you have to wear a special glove?  Obviously the contact system (Sawstop) wouldn't work with a meat cutting saw, but I have no idea how this would differentiate between a piece of meat and your hand.

"BladeStop is available in two sensing methods:
1. Upon sensing contact with the operator, the blade stops operating within 0.009 seconds. This can be a huge difference between having just a small skin cut or an amputated finger.
2. The sensing system detects operator gloves moving at high speed in a zone directly upstream from the saw blade and triggers the BladeStop™ mechanism to stop the meat band saw blade."https://www.scottautomation.com/products/bladestop/

 

[Svar]

I'm curious how it would detect proximity...do you have to wear a special glove?  Obviously the contact system (Sawstop) wouldn't work with a meat cutting saw, but I have no idea how this would differentiate between a piece of meat and your hand.

It "senses body electromagnetic field" which is vague way to put it. No glove is needed.

 

[RussellS]

Once it reaches the level of the Felder K700 SawStop will need to start worrying if they have been resting on their laurels too much.

I'm going to say it needs to get down to the Hammer brand saws before it really competes with SawStop.  Hammer K3 smallest saw is $5500.  Of course the Hammer K3 at $8500 is the only one worth having.  But...  The cheapest SawStop Industrial cabinet saw is about $4000.  So $1500-2000 difference in base saws.  Hammer has the sliding table which is why people buy the Hammer saw.  Is the sliding table worth $1500-2000 if both saws have a blade stop safety feature?

 

[BoulderAv]

Once it reaches the level of the Felder K700 SawStop will need to start worrying if they have been resting on their laurels too much.

I'm going to say it needs to get down to the Hammer brand saws before it really competes with SawStop.  Hammer K3 smallest saw is $5500.  Of course the Hammer K3 at $8500 is the only one worth having.  But...  The cheapest SawStop Industrial cabinet saw is about $4000.  So $1500-2000 difference in base saws.  Hammer has the sliding table which is why people buy the Hammer saw.  Is the sliding table worth $1500-2000 if both saws have a blade stop safety feature?

Getting down to the Felder level is more about making SawStop think about product devlopment and differentiation. I am guessing that most SawStops sold are far less expensive varieties like the contractor or professional where Felder does not even compete thus Hammer's more expensive units are less of a threat. The real profit is in the approachable luxury/industrial market not the low or super high end (see BMW, Apple, etc).

 

[blaszcsj]

Once it reaches the level of the Felder K700 SawStop will need to start worrying if they have been resting on their laurels too much.

I'm going to say it needs to get down to the Hammer brand saws before it really competes with SawStop.  Hammer K3 smallest saw is $5500.  Of course the Hammer K3 at $8500 is the only one worth having.  But...  The cheapest SawStop Industrial cabinet saw is about $4000.  So $1500-2000 difference in base saws.  Hammer has the sliding table which is why people buy the Hammer saw.  Is the sliding table worth $1500-2000 if both saws have a blade stop safety feature?

Are you saying that the hammer would be of more or less value with the sawstop feature? The hammer slider value is that it provides more utility than the cabinet saw and the slider option for the sawstop is and additional $1k I believe. So the value proposition as stated is really over a difference of only 1K and I think the utility of a slider out weighs the added cost.

 

[Bear77]

I talked to a felder sale rep. They say it only be  available for industrial unit.

 

[Svar]

the slider option for the sawstop is and additional $1k I believe.

Moreover, it's not a real slider as it does not go right past the blade. It has decreased utility because one can't use it to rip and straight-line solid lumber. All those add-on sliders for cabinet saws are just over-sized miter gauges.

 

[RussellS]

Once it reaches the level of the Felder K700 SawStop will need to start worrying if they have been resting on their laurels too much.

I'm going to say it needs to get down to the Hammer brand saws before it really competes with SawStop.  Hammer K3 smallest saw is $5500.  Of course the Hammer K3 at $8500 is the only one worth having.  But...  The cheapest SawStop Industrial cabinet saw is about $4000.  So $1500-2000 difference in base saws.  Hammer has the sliding table which is why people buy the Hammer saw.  Is the sliding table worth $1500-2000 if both saws have a blade stop safety feature?

Getting down to the Felder level is more about making SawStop think about product devlopment and differentiation. I am guessing that most SawStops sold are far less expensive varieties like the contractor or professional where Felder does not even compete thus Hammer's more expensive units are less of a threat. The real profit is in the approachable luxury/industrial market not the low or super high end (see BMW, Apple, etc).

Not sure what you are saying.  People buying Felder machines may not even know what a SawStop is.  They are in different worlds.  So Felder has their cheaper Hammer brand to compete against SawStop.  Those brands may attract the same customers.  Thus for Felder/Hammer to compete against SawStop using their blade safety mechanism, they must put the blade safety feature in the Hammer brand.  If the blade safety feature stays only in the Felder $10-15-20 thousand dollar machines, then it is not competing against SawStop.  Put the saw safety feature in the $5000 Hammer saws and it will be an effective feature for competing against SawStop.  Putting it in the Felder K700 $10,000 saw is not competing.  Putting it in the Hammer K3 $5500 may compete.  Or if Felder/Hammer want to start a third brand of cheap tools priced near SawStop and Jet and General, and include the saw blade safety feature.

 

[RussellS]

Once it reaches the level of the Felder K700 SawStop will need to start worrying if they have been resting on their laurels too much.

I'm going to say it needs to get down to the Hammer brand saws before it really competes with SawStop.  Hammer K3 smallest saw is $5500.  Of course the Hammer K3 at $8500 is the only one worth having.  But...  The cheapest SawStop Industrial cabinet saw is about $4000.  So $1500-2000 difference in base saws.  Hammer has the sliding table which is why people buy the Hammer saw.  Is the sliding table worth $1500-2000 if both saws have a blade stop safety feature?

Are you saying that the hammer would be of more or less value with the sawstop feature? The hammer slider value is that it provides more utility than the cabinet saw and the slider option for the sawstop is and additional $1k I believe. So the value proposition as stated is really over a difference of only 1K and I think the utility of a slider out weighs the added cost.

The Hammer would be MORE value with the blade safety.  And Felder would be MORE value with the blade safety.  And ALL saws would be MORE value with the blade safety.  I am FOR safety.  Safety adds value always.  I wholeheartedly agree the European slider on the Felder/Hammer/SCMI/Altendorf/Martin saws is far far far superior to any American style saws.  And if I had to make a choice, I'd choose the European slider over any SawStop safety feature.  BUT, if I could get BOTH the European slider AND the saw safety blade feature, I'd choose that one.  Thus if Felder gets the safety feature down to the Hammer price level, I will spit and p-ss on the SawStop as I run to buy one.  I like the SawStop safety feature.  But putting it on an antiquated fossil American table saw is pointless to me.  I want modern, functional European sliding tablesaw.