Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System

RussellS said:
Snip.
I like the SawStop safety feature.  But putting it on an antiquated fossil American table saw is pointless to me.  I want modern, functional European sliding tablesaw.
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Most amateur woodworkers, especially in EU, don't have space for a sliding saw, money aside. If I put a siding saw in my shop, I would have to get rid of at least 50% of all other machines I have. So for people like me, the SawStop is the best table saw option available. Of course, many of us don't deal with sheet goods as much, and a sliding saw, given its price, can be an overkill.
 
ChuckM said:
RussellS said:
Snip.
I like the SawStop safety feature.  But putting it on an antiquated fossil American table saw is pointless to me.  I want modern, functional European sliding tablesaw.
Click to expand...

Most amateur woodworkers, especially in EU, don't have space for a sliding saw, money aside. If I put a siding saw in my shop, I would have to get rid of at least 50% of all other machines I have. So for people like me, the SawStop is the best table saw option available. Of course, many of us don't deal with sheet goods as much, and a sliding saw, given its price, can be an overkill.
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Hammer offers sliding table saws in lengths of 31", 48", 79", and 126".  The 31" is basically a big miter saw.  Not too useful I think.  But the 48" and 79" would work for almost all furniture built.  6.5 feet is pretty close to the biggest table top or door you are going to make.  You need 13-14 feet of clear space for the 79" slider.  I bet almost all small shops have that much space.  And everyone loves rolling mobile bases for their tools.  So just park all your tools in the 4-6.5 foot outfeed section of the slider and move them out for the rare occasions you need the full 6.5 foot slider.  You could build an entire kitchen cabinet set and never need more than 3 feet of slider.  6 foot total length.  The 48", (8 foot total) slider would be perfect.

Sliding saws are not only used for sheet goods.  I think they would be perfect for all solid wood cutting.  Miter cuts, cross cuts, AND straight line ripping boards.  In 5 seconds you would have a straight line cut on one edge of a board with a slider.  Much faster than a track saw can cut it.

The maximum slider you can have in your shop is equal to the maximum length of wood you can rip on your tablesaw.  If you can rip an 8 foot length of board, then you can have an 8 foot slider.  And need roughly 17 feet of space.  8' infeed, 10" blade, 8' outfeed.  If the maximum you can rip is only 48", then you can have a 4 foot slider.  And need roughly 9 feet of clear space.  4' infeed, 10" blade, 4' outfeed.
 
It looks like it's based on a vision system which is way more high tech and potentially more configurable, than the strictly capacitance based system of the Saw Stop.

It seems like Gass exited stage left at the appropriate moment. That's a relief...enough of that grifter.
 
The "live finger" demonstration has to be the craziest thing I have ever seen. It looks awesome and is definitely a serious step ahead of the other vendors. This was of course inevitable because safety is paramount at businesses and that is Felder's primary market. A little extra money for the device will be recovered after the 1st save. At some point machines with safety devices will be in majority and insurance and workman's comp pricing will reflect it.
 
My neighbor got a new car that came with the latest safety features as "standard" offer, previously reserved for only the luxury models. With or without regulations, it is a matter of time that all future table saws will all come with "finger-saving" technology (contact or contact-less) or its derivatives.

Don't know if Dr. Gass picked the right time to enter the market with his innovation, but surely he seemed to have found the right time to exit!
 
Bert Vanderveen said:
The latest video on the Felder YouTube channel highlights some new stuff launched at the Ligna tradeshow. Among that the PCS. With an employee risking his fingers…
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Wow...Felder's going all-in on the automation front. Some pretty interesting ideas.  [big grin]
 
Meet Harry, he's Felder's main man for training their sales staff to extract the maximum amount of money from your wallet. I've had the pleasure of drinking beer with him, he a good guy IMHO. The old saying " he could sell a refrigerator to an Eskimo" should be on this mans calling card.
The innovations are interesting but currently way beyond the reach of most small shops and only for those others with extremely deep pockets. One of the main selling features was that with a slider and proper use your fingers don't get as close as hotdog boy, funny how marketing changes, sort of like the wind. The only real benefit will come when it trickles down to the saws creating most of the injuries not the $30,000.00 to $50,000.00 saws.
 
ChuckM said:
The sooner the better (I am a SawStop owner) because competition like that (hopefully) will either bring the SawStop more affordable to all woodworkers (they will be forced to lower their prices in time to compete), or will bring a new kind of safety protection for other machines. It is a win for all woodworkers.
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To me the initial price is irrelevant really.

Reason I never would buy a sawstop was for two reasons.

One i dont like it when some one is trying make his/her product compulsory through law.

Secondly I never liked the idea that it can be triggered by not just your fingers but wet wood or metal objects which would cause damage to my brand new blade and cost of replacing sawstops cartridge and if not having a spare sharp blade to hand costing me a lost days work.

This would then cause me to deactivate the sawstop if i had doubts it being triggered or not which then defeats the point of sawstop.

This felder PCS system is the way forward now this is something ill be more than happy to have on my table saws infact rather than avoiding like i do with sawstop I will actually actively search for tools with such a device.

 
The initial price was a big deal to the group of table saw makers that rejected SawStop's offer of technology. They argued that the technology would add a few hundred dollars to the base prices.

Yes, it is less than desirable when you have to turn off the SS when cutting wet wood and metal, and if the Felder's technology avoids that, it is a much better option, not to mention its non-destructive nature. Yet, unless you mostly deal with wet wood or the like, you are still better off in terms of protection for the rest of the time when using the saw.

In my case, I have used the bypass function twice since owning the SawStop (2014), each time 15 mins to half an hour. Percentage wise: 1% or less?
 
kcufstoidi said:
One of the main selling features was that with a slider and proper use your fingers don't get as close
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Agree agree agree.  The European slider just makes the table saw safe or safer.  With the slider, the usefulness or need of the finger saving safety feature is minimized.  Kind of like wearing a bullet proof vest when riding inside an armored and bullet proof glass vehicle.  What's the point?
 
RussellS said:
kcufstoidi said:
One of the main selling features was that with a slider and proper use your fingers don't get as close
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Agree agree agree.  The European slider just makes the table saw safe or safer.  With the slider, the usefulness or need of the finger saving safety feature is minimized.  Kind of like wearing a bullet proof vest when riding inside an armored and bullet proof glass vehicle.  What's the point?
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To a point, but the problem is that accidents do happen and when you least expect it.
 
If the slider is the solution to sawing injuries, why has Felder invested money in developing this new technology in the first place??? [eek] I have seen videos showing some users making risky and dangerous cuts using a slider. Were they complacent? I don't know, but I do know I wouldn't do that with my SawStop.

Still any additional layer of protection against shop injuries on any machines, sliders included, is welcomed.
 
ChuckM said:
If the slider is the solution to sawing injuries, why has Felder invested money in developing this new technology in the first place??? [eek] I have seen videos showing some users making risky and dangerous cuts using a slider. Were they complacent? I don't know, but I do know I wouldn't do that with my SawStop.

Still any additional layer of protection against shop injuries on any machines, sliders included, is welcomed.
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I would say with my experience with Felder its based on the nanny society we live in, no one wants to take responsibility for proper safety training or with their stupidity involving accidents. They believe throwing money at it is the answer. If it was for anything more than extracting more money why didn't they release it in their Hammer and more popular K700 series. The Kappa 550 release is a test to see if anyone will take the bait. We will see how that goes over, it least it a huge step up over the archaic design of the Sawstop and it destructive solution. Hopefully Festool will also refine this for the people that feel the need for one.
 
kcufstoidi said:
If it was for anything more than extracting more money why didn't they release it in their Hammer and more popular K700 series.
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Someone quoted a Felder rep., saying the plan is to release Hammer with the PCS feature in 2023 (is it 2025?).
 
kcufstoidi said:
I would say with my experience with Felder its based on the nanny society we live in, no one wants to take responsibility for proper safety training or with their stupidity involving accidents. They believe throwing money at it is the answer.
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No, simply no one wants to get injured. Hence people tend to chose safer things. Training and safety features are not mutually exclusive, they complement each other.

kcufstoidi said:
If it was for anything more than extracting more money why didn't they release it in their Hammer and more popular K700 series.
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They are for profit, so money in exchange for new products is the name of the game. As for why not Hammer. Its a standard practice to introduce new tech starting from premium models whether its tools, cars, or phones.
 
kcufstoidi said:
ChuckM said:
If the slider is the solution to sawing injuries, why has Felder invested money in developing this new technology in the first place??? [eek] I have seen videos showing some users making risky and dangerous cuts using a slider. Were they complacent? I don't know, but I do know I wouldn't do that with my SawStop.

Still any additional layer of protection against shop injuries on any machines, sliders included, is welcomed.
Click to expand...

I would say with my experience with Felder its based on the nanny society we live in, no one wants to take responsibility for proper safety training or with their stupidity involving accidents. They believe throwing money at it is the answer. If it was for anything more than extracting more money why didn't they release it in their Hammer and more popular K700 series. The Kappa 550 release is a test to see if anyone will take the bait. We will see how that goes over, it least it a huge step up over the archaic design of the Sawstop and it destructive solution. Hopefully Festool will also refine this for the people that feel the need for one.
Click to expand...

I hardly call Sawstop's solution archaic. You may not like the implementation, but it does work and destruction of the blade is your last concern after you notice you still have 10 digits. They were first to market and spent significant time and money developing a product that has never existed. The 2nd and subsequent entrants to the market have it a lot easier.

Sawstop also enabled schools to once again have table saws that students can use (and be trained on). When I was in middle and high school we had a table saw in the shop, but the only person who could use it was the teache

I'll add that there is a lot more than what you describe as the "nanny state" involved in decisions to add safety features. Companies with large shops want these to prevent injuries which can cost them production time and ultimately money. Insurance companies also want them as they don't want to cover costly claims related to injuries. Workman's comp is not cheap in industrial work environments. Anything to lower risk is important and will save money. Small to medium size shops are at the greatest risk of an injury to a key employee (it may be the end of their business).

As a business owner there is no choice when it comes to safety. These are going to mandated by the government (OSHA) or insurance companies through premiums at some point. With more than one manufacturer that time will be sooner rather than later. Better to be ahead of the game than caught with a product you can't sell or that no one wants.

The good news for you is that if you have an industrial table saw you will never need (or be forced) to buy a safer saw because it will last you a lifetime if cared for and maintained.

 
The SawStop technology is almost 20 years now, and like it or not, it has saved more fingers than any other table saw safety devices. If Felder's innovation is a step or many steps ahead of it, Dr. Gass should feel happy because it is his breakthrough that allowed such further safety innovation to happen. We must not forget that SawStop was a risky, unproven commercial proposal back then. Its subsequent business success paved the way for others to invest in improving the finger-saving technology.

Remember Whirlwind flesh sensing technology? I wonder what effects the Felder's new innovation might have on its table saw finger-saving product development.
 
"They are for profit, so money in exchange for new products is the name of the game. As for why not Hammer. Its a standard practice to introduce new tech starting from premium models whether its tools, cars, or phones."

If they were truly in it to for profit it would have been introduced into an affordable model that would sell way more units, not just the highest priced saw in their lineup. Sort of like Bosch did with their adaption of non destructive tech. Tables saws/sliders are something that are continually disappearing in any major operations because of CNC. Makes more sense to put the $50,000.00 towards a CNC, it can produce more per dollar/hr of operation and is much safer.

As far as table saw in schools they started dying when school boards started crashing tech courses that were deemed to expensive to maintain and lack of interest from the current generations. The lawyers killed it further with their ambulance chasing ways then the insurance companies finished it off with stupid premiums because of the parasitic lawyers. As far as Sawstop once you use a slider properly for any length of time you will understand the comments about safety. If given a Sawstop, I would sell it to buy more accessories for my current equipment. As for Gass, he is a truly unique individual for the garbage he tried to pull. Only time will tell if Felder PCS goes the way the Griggo system went, their marketing will be interesting as they back pedal on their previous sales tactics. As we are seeing the only truly safe way for business to shield itself is too limit human machine contact through robotic interfaces. A human operator has always found a way to get injured no matter how safe the environment is.
 
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