Festool CS70 and Incra mitre gauge

[maplestiltskin]

Hi there, this is my first post - I hope it may prove useful. I have had a precise CS70 for some time with the extension tables and the sliding table attachment but frankly the sliding table has been unused for literally years. Also I have become very frustrated with the standard crosscut fence/protractor assembly; it is simply is not accurate enough. So I wondered about combining an Incra Mitre 1000 HD and the CS 70 to give me the optimum performance. I have seen an application where a user has modified the saw table top to take the mitre gauge (http://www.fine-tools.com/incra-base-assembly.html), however I did not want to modify my saw in the same way.

So, after some contemplation and a few beers I came up with the idea of replacing the sliding table with one which would take an Incra mitre jig. Basically, I dis-assembled the sliding table assembly and replaced the table extrusion with one I made by laminating pieces of ply together to achieve the 42mm thickness of the table. I used standard Incra T-track on the bottom to take the locking nuts of the original festool assembly - although I had to replace the nuts with M6 square nuts (standard ones seem to work fine). I used Incra mitre track on the top and added some Incra T-track too - just because I might need it some time in the future - maybe...perhaps - well it seems like a good idea...and I can use a festool clamp or an Incra corner bracket to fix the fence down if I need to...

Ok so the bottom line is does it work? Well, I trued the mitre fence to the saw blade using an accurate square (Incra) and made a series of cuts at 30 degrees to make a hexagonal shape and hey presto I got a perfect hexagon first time, right off the saw! Better than I ever got any other way. Here are a few rather poor piks to give you an idea...
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Just to be clear, to get the best result I locked the sliding table down (by increasing the friction of the bearing on the bottom of the slide, not using the 'locking nut which pulls the whole table off axis.) so it could not move and increased the friction in the mitre gauge slider so that it also did not move. This meant I was only using he mitre gauge as a registration fence and could use a clamp to hold the 'wood' or in this case mdf still and use the saw as a pull-saw. Worked first time though - and a few more since times as well.

Having gone to the trouble of doing this, there are a few things I would like to point out:

1. I made the table longer than the original extrusion so that it would hold the full length of the mitre gauge slider bar.
2. The 'locking' nut does lock the table extrusion and stop it flying about, but it does also pull the unit off axis so don't use it for anything other than to transport the unit around unless you intend to true up the mitre gauge fence afterwards.
3. It does take a bit of time to set the whole assembly (as per the original festool instructions) up but it should remain accurate once done - we will see...
4. An added advantage for me is I finally get to use the damn sliding table which gives me a little more support to the left of the blade AND it converts really easily from rip to cross-cut - even easier and more accurate than the festool one - bonus in my book!
5. I took a look at a CS50 which has the same sliding table assembly as the CMS and I think the same approach may work there as well.

If you don't have one of these sliding table assemblies, then I would suggest building your own base and building in integrated side table for the mitre jig - it will probably be even better and you won't have the two bars of the assembly sticking out the front of the machine either..Its just that here in the UK the sell the whole thing as a kit and the inexperienced (i.e. me) think its a good deal!

Oh - you may just about be able to see that I took off the Festool folding legs and replaced them with my own base which runs on casters and houses a dedicated extractor unit. That way I can move the whole thing around easily in the shop and just press the go button to start creating..

Sorry this is a bit longer than I intended but hope it is relatively clear and may help someone...just hope I put it in the right place!

 

[Fruit bomb]

Hi

A very good posting [member=55191]maplestiltskin[/member]. I have been playing with an idea first to improve the movability of my CS70 in the shop and secondly the miter fence is a bit bendy and not so accurate as one would want.

Yesterday I decided to go forward with the movability issue and I will build a cabinet with casters underneath.  Would be interested to see your cabinet in more detail. I think that it would also serve as a storage for the accessories which are not in use.

I really like your approach to the miter fence,  might need to copy the idea.  Also it expands the surface area of the sliding table which would be a huge improvement...

 

[greg mann]

The small surface is, as you point out, a real limiter to the capacity of the saw. You solved that issue quite nicely. It was the first thing i noticed and I believe I will copy you design. This sliding mechanism has become outdated as the new version on the cms looks dramatically better and is less apt get caught on your hip pocket when you walk by.

I really like your design.

 

[bkharman]

The small surface is, as you point out, a real limiter to the capacity of the saw. You solved that issue quite nicely. It was the first thing i noticed and I believe I will copy you design. This sliding mechanism has become outdated as the new version on the cms looks dramatically better and is less apt get caught on your hip pocket when you walk by.

I really like your design.

This isn't a new CMS design. This is a saw available everywhere but North America. The dual rail design is quite nice though.

 

[AlexThePalex]

The small surface is, as you point out, a real limiter to the capacity of the saw. You solved that issue quite nicely. It was the first thing i noticed and I believe I will copy you design. This sliding mechanism has become outdated as the new version on the cms looks dramatically better and is less apt get caught on your hip pocket when you walk by.

I really like your design.

This isn't a new CMS design. This is a saw available everywhere but North America. The dual rail design is quite nice though.

I think greg probaly knows this as he is one of the few north americans who have the CS70.

I have the CS70 also and I don't like the slider very much, it is so bulky, the one of the CMS is much nicer.

 

[greg mann]

Exactly, Alex.

 

[Kev]

I have the CS70 also and I don't like the slider very much, it is so bulky, the one of the CMS is much nicer.

The CMS sliding table is probably the best part of the entire setup. The CMS rip fence could have been really good, but it's unfortunately a bit clunky. Then extension tables are "ok".

I'd love to see better integration of Incra (and Incra like) stuff with Festool.

 

[maplestiltskin]

Hi Guys, thanks for the kind comments. Whilst I found the modification to be accurate and work as intended, it does have one major drawback for me - those protruding bars just kept on getting in the way - my shop is too small to have a hazard like that so I went back to the drawing board and modified the design - after a few bruises!!

In the end I ditched the sliding carriage altogether and built a simple 'add-on' to the base I built to provide mobility. The base itself is just planed 2'x3' pine screwed together using kreg screws. I used 4" casters on the base but offset the castor mounts to provide enough space under the saw for a dedicated fein extractor (cheaper than the festool and does the job!). The side table for the mitre jig is simply screwed on to the side at the correct height with an Incra mitre channel set into it. I have put in two more channels for clamps, etc. but have not put in the track for them yet. The side table is made up from laminations of birch ply - the bits I had happened to be painted green on one side (left-overs from a kitchen)..

This is a pretty ugly add-on but it works just fine. I did have to secure the incra-table to the side of the saw using bolts so there was no possibility of movement between the two. The saw just sits on the mobile frame and the table is bolted to the frame so there is always the possibility the saw shifting on the frame at the worst possible moment so I just used the holes in the 'legs' of the festool saw to secure them together and eliminate movement.  The side table gives me the possibility of building in a set of drawers or cupboards for blades etc. but I have not got that far yet.

The whole table saw rig runs under the support bench I built for the apex as you will see in the last pik. I'm afraid my workshop constructions are basic and totally biased toward utility, creativity is reserved for the paid work.

In use, I tend to clamp the infra jig in what ever position relative to the saw blade using the groove on the festool saw itself. Then I clamp the work down and use the pull-saw capability of the Precisio. I find this combination to be very accurate and can't remember the last time I used a shooting board to tidy up...

Hope this helps - let me know if you want any more pike. Unfortunately I don't have any plans as I just built this on the fly. I think this approach will work for the cs50 and the cms system although the cmd does not afford the pull-saw capability.

 

[Fruit bomb]

Hi,

Thanks for the comprehensive update. The sliding table indeed loses its meaning a bit with a pull saw. Seems that the incra fence shines with the pull mechanism.  Where do you need Capex anymore?!  [big grin]

I have started to build a mobile base for the saw, but still maintaining the orig sliding table. I will put two casters to the back and use normal legs in front.  I hope that this will keep the saw more stable.

By the way,  your shop looks well organized!

 

[greg mann]

Hi,

Thanks for the comprehensive update. The sliding table indeed loses its meaning a bit with a pull saw. Seems that the incra fence shines with the pull mechanism.  Where do you need Capex anymore?!  [big grin]

I have started to build a mobile base for the saw, but still maintaining the orig sliding table. I will put two casters to the back and use normal legs in front.  I hope that this will keep the saw more stable.

By the way,  your shop looks well organized!

I moved the original casters to the outside of the legs as opposed to the inside where they needed to be dropped in order to use. Now I just grab the two knobs that cinch up the front legs, lift, and move the saw where I wish. I think Frank-Jan was the inspiration for this. works pretty well.

I like what the OP has done from the perspective of increasing the work surface and using the pull function to mitigate losing the slider. He has set the saw up pretty well for basic stationary use. I use mine that way but am hesitant to dig too deeply into 'improving' it for stationary use at the expense of losing its pedigree as a really good site saw. That said, it would probably make more sense to find a good cabinet/slider old iron saw like a Wadkin for shop use. If I accomplish my goal of building a stand-alone workshop I believe I will go in that direction and relegate the CS70 to a subordinate role. Its original owner replaced it with a Felder combo but that is more tool than I need any time soon, if ever.

 

[maplestiltskin]

Greg, I completely understand your point on retaining the site saw capability. this was my intention at the outset and one of the reasons I got the CS70, but my work has now taken me more into pre-fabrication and then subsequent installation so there is no need for a site saw for me. The workshop has subsequently become a 'fabrication yard' where everything is pre-built and being only 12' square does not lend itself to a big stationary saw. The mods to the CS70 and its mobility have made all the difference to me, particularly when I need the space to fabricate kitchen cabinets, etc. Hence the 'organisation' which fruit bomb alludes to although it doesn't usually look that neat and tidy....Thanks for the feedback gents.

 

[maahou]

Hello do you get good results with your incra ? are your cuts totally square with long cuts ?
I'd like to see , if possible, more details on how your side table is linked to the main table. Have you had problems with misalignment (parallel) with the side table ?

 

[maplestiltskin]

Hi mahou,

You have asked some really valid questions. My CS70 sits on the base that I made and I have bolted the legs to the side table. I removed the folding legs and used the attachment points of those to bolt the CS70 to the side table. I used a spacer between the CS70 and the front table to get the track that I cut in the side table for the Incra and the blade parallel. I will try and take some photos to make this a little clearer but its a bit late here now to do it tonight. I know you can adjust the Incra fence to be perpendicular to the blade very easily but I am a bit pedantic that way.

In terms of cuts, I am very happy with the results I get. I have cut many 4 and 8 sided boxes and frames using this system and it works for me. the joints are tight and do not need 'fixing' with a shooting board (yawn!). I do most of my work on a cnc router so any 'sneaking up' on a fit has become a drag for me..In fact I have been quite surprised at how often I have removed the Incra fence from the table and replaced it and it has maintained its 90 degree position relative to the blade.

The most irritating thing about the CS70 for me now (which has nothing to do with this subject) is the blade angle offset from the parallel fence which is supposed to reduce or eliminate kick-back. It really irks me that if you are ripping strips of wood it leaves a mark on the piece to the left of the blade. I have not had a chance to see if anyone has sorted this out but if not, it may be a new project...And festool already supplies the parallel or rip fence in a two parts so that the top part can be moved to achieve the same outcome....grr!