Hi Bob, I don't mind you or anyone criticising it at all.Like I said I appreciate your comments and expected to have some critics.It's all good as far as I am concerned and I realise it's not spiteful .I must however admit I am wary when people get the calculators out and start talking UK regs! [wink] As you have asked yes there is a T type of effect as I put some galvanised nails in the sides of each beam. On the part near the terrace they are chemically fixed with anchors. Yes the cement is in contact with the wood and as the wood was well dried I doubt there will be much shrinkage. All this is standard stuff really and I can tell you I have had to remove rotten old beams installed in this way [back in the days when I didn't have sds max!] and you might think they would come out easily but half a day later you realise they are there for good and if the exterieur part hadn't rotted still would be.Now then Bob you mentioned your concerns with using Dominos. Can I put a question to you. What project would you consider it OK to use on? To my mind the Domino XL replaces a morticer and sipo dominos are destined for exterior joinery. Does that include structural or just decorative? What use is the tool if it can't be used for jobs like this? I suppose you could make a table with it but what if ten 20 stone wrestlers all sat on at the same time? Please don't take my response the wrong way it's just my sense of humour.[big grin] I appreciate your comments but nothing you or anyone else has said has altered my belief that it is good for years, just seems obvious to me. Another thought not only the top beam is embedded but so is the bottom one , not as deep granted about 25 or 30 cms I think. Seriously do you really think it might come loose!
Festool domino XL balcony build
- Thread starter Nigel
- Start date
I'd guess the larger domino's are intended for smaller exterior jobs like possibly joining door rails to stiles perhaps. Personally I consider them a short cut not worth risking. Give me a drawbored or wedged tenon any day. It costs the same for materials, same time to mark out, then just a bit extra to do the job with a tried and tested method that's been around for yonks.
I try and consider every job as a risk and work the best way possible to reduce it. If the stiles on a door come apart because the glues let go, big deal - although they wouldn't if they were wedged !
Tenons drawbored would be my choice, the same way roof trusses have been made for 100's of years.
I don't think there's any harm with us English people wanting a second opinion (from an expert, like a structural engineer ) with something like this. If things started failing its a comfort to know that everything possible was done to prevent it.
If for some strange reason your build does fail, the bare minimum is all the wood will be wasted/damaged and there will be a big mess to clean up, the worst case scenario is alot of people die.
I try and consider every job as a risk and work the best way possible to reduce it. If the stiles on a door come apart because the glues let go, big deal - although they wouldn't if they were wedged !
Tenons drawbored would be my choice, the same way roof trusses have been made for 100's of years.
I don't think there's any harm with us English people wanting a second opinion (from an expert, like a structural engineer ) with something like this. If things started failing its a comfort to know that everything possible was done to prevent it.
If for some strange reason your build does fail, the bare minimum is all the wood will be wasted/damaged and there will be a big mess to clean up, the worst case scenario is alot of people die.
Well Chewy your entitled to your opinion if course. I happen to think it a bit extreme to mention a lot of people dying as a result well not even extreme just ridiculous.More words of wisdom from planet UK! Yes drawbored tenons have been proven over years that's not to say modern methods are no good is it and you keep forgetting the top beam is embedded 45cms in the wall that's nearly half a metre! Not only that it's Iroko. Have you ever worked with Iroko? Just come back to the real world for a minute and think about what you have just said. Do you really believe it may all collapse in an instant and there will be a big mess to clear up? Unbelievable. Another thought has occurred to me that I had completely forgotten. My own house has a very old balcony with wait for it...... no frames! Just beams in the walls [eek]. Been there hundreds of years with no frames to support it! It's a miracle! Only difference apart from no frames is it's slightly larger section Oak. Most of the old balconies here were built like that and they are very common. No tenons no Dominos no nothing. As for this one, I suppose in a future episode of Red Dwarf the owner may invite a team of rugby players and their wives to tea and ask them all to admire the view at the same time and possibly even an Elephant may just escape from the local zoo and make it's way directly..... sorry but I feel I have just entered another dimension [eek]
Holmz
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The first thing I thought when I saw it was, "Crickey! If it failed someone would tumble down...", which coincidently is one of the top causes of death for tourists in Australia.
I could picture an imbibing sort slamming into it.
I think the main issue would be the lever arm trying to level out the dominos.
If there are 2 or 4 it would help.
But the rail also spreads any force out linearly.
I dunno... Sometimes and engineer's advise is worthwhile.
It looks well done.
I could picture an imbibing sort slamming into it.
I think the main issue would be the lever arm trying to level out the dominos.
If there are 2 or 4 it would help.
But the rail also spreads any force out linearly.
I dunno... Sometimes and engineer's advise is worthwhile.
It looks well done.
I suppose it may look dodgy from an onlookers perspective but I can assure you anyone crashing into it however hard will injure themselves only because they have hit something hard.They are not going through it. Incidentally the only area they could gain any momentum would be at the ends and they are braced at right angles. There are 6 x 14mm Dominos in each angle brace. Oh sorry you meant the handrail?? It's hard to see but there are 2 x 14mm Dominos top and bottom. Again like I said the top beam embedded in the wall is enough on it's own in the real world. Thanks for your thoughts though Holmz [smile]. What happens in Oz by the way?
I've worked with enough iroko for it to have its own small small area in the wood rack.
Brilliant timber for external use, awful to machine cause it destroys cutters for a past time, and the dust is killer. It use to be the most common timber I used for hardwood windows or doors but it had a real desire to sometimes just go bendy Wendy or twist. The other thing is I only ever used it with mortice and tenon with either screws if it was window frames or drawbores if the job required it- roof trusses.
As you've already said, a very naturally oily timber. When ever I've used it there's always been another mechanical fixing as a matter of course or degreased the joint with acetone and then used resin.
Your first response was to slag off my country because we ensure things are done to certain standards/regulations. These regulations keep our country safe from slap dash cowboy builders and hopefully prevent things from falling down.
I think the finished job looks stunning, I just question the jointing method for such a substantial thing.
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Brilliant timber for external use, awful to machine cause it destroys cutters for a past time, and the dust is killer. It use to be the most common timber I used for hardwood windows or doors but it had a real desire to sometimes just go bendy Wendy or twist. The other thing is I only ever used it with mortice and tenon with either screws if it was window frames or drawbores if the job required it- roof trusses.
As you've already said, a very naturally oily timber. When ever I've used it there's always been another mechanical fixing as a matter of course or degreased the joint with acetone and then used resin.
Your first response was to slag off my country because we ensure things are done to certain standards/regulations. These regulations keep our country safe from slap dash cowboy builders and hopefully prevent things from falling down.
I think the finished job looks stunning, I just question the jointing method for such a substantial thing.
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OK Chewy whatever. Happens to be my country of origin and I have a right to my opinions of it and the fact that I like some things about it and some things I don't. I am required by law to provide a ten year guarantee. What the UK has is loads of cowboy builders with no guarantees at all who actually do put people's live in danger - there's even a program on tv dedicated to it called Cowboy builders. Thanks for your compliment though that it looks stunning - I appreciate it.
Nigel said:
I've only had mine for a relatively short while. But I have used mine for exterior doors, from standard house entrance doors up to large pairs of garage/barn style doors. Also making a bed frame and indeed as you've pointed out a table. Basically anything where failure wouldn't be overtly dangerous.
The beams being chemically anchored is a good thing and does give me more confidence in the structure (not that it matters what I think). So really it just comes down to is the diagonal brace actually doing anything in terms of support or are they decorative/supplemental to the main bean being cemented into the building...
Personally, whilst I suspect the main beam being embedded deeply into the wall at the top and chemically anchored is taking the lion's share of the weight, I still think the rest of the bracket is contributing to the overall strength and as a result I just don't know if loose tenon joinery is really the best way to go; especially with PU glue, if it were me I'd at the very least used an epoxy.
But hey ho. I suspect it will last many many years, the question in my mind is when it does eventually give out will those dominos be the weak link in the chain...?
AlexThePalex
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Nigel said:
Not commenting on your build because I don't know anything about such things.
But surely in France there must be an official building code too?
I basically agree with what you say Bob. The bracket does indeed contribute to the strength overall but like you say the lion's share is taken up by the top beam.As for giving out eventually, nothing lasts forever be it tenons,wood or Dominos and someone will probably come along in 25 years time and drive a nice stainless steel cap head bolt through each angle to firm it up and 20 years after that someone will replace a couple of angles or a beam or whatever and so on.bobfog said:
Yes there is my reply was a little tongue in cheek as in the UK it's difficult to go to the toilet without permission these days. [big grin]Alex said:
erock
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[member=6152]Nigel[/member]
I have to be honest. I had to watch the video twice. The first time I really didn't pay much attention to the music. I was to engrossed in the work you where doing.
BON BOULOT ! On both the build and the music. [cool]
Eric
P.S. Sorry if my French is off, I took French in high school and don't remember much. [embarassed]
I have to be honest. I had to watch the video twice. The first time I really didn't pay much attention to the music. I was to engrossed in the work you where doing.
BON BOULOT ! On both the build and the music. [cool]
Eric
P.S. Sorry if my French is off, I took French in high school and don't remember much. [embarassed]
Martin1981
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Hi Nigel, great work. The video was one of the reasons why I bought the df700 last year. I want to build a balcony now and came back to watch your work, but obviously the video is no longer online. Could you please give me a link for the video? It would really help me. Thanks so much!
PS: great music.
PS: great music.
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