Festool Haters and CNC

[nickao]

I just recently had an experience on a  private forum I am on .

Did you know there are Festool haters? People that have never used the tools. People that only because of the cost scoff and have no clue about the benefits of a good sander that is dustless and refuse to even listen. People that do not want to hear about better tools or tool that are "better" than theirs.

I am  so upset, I stopped posting at that forum and as many know I post a lot. I may have been the top poster there, if not, close to it. If I am not posting here you better believe I am at some tool forum somewhere posting and helping.I have spent hours upon hours helping people on that CNC forum and I make one simple sentence about how a Festool sander could be the answer and get shut down !

The administrator had the nerve to tell me it is better to not have any discussion about Festools because ONE person did not want to hear about some tools may be better than his. Never mind the hundreds of people I could have helped. Many Guys  there use only the CNC and need help sanding, etc. They have little to no shop tool experience. Certain people or a single person does not even want me to mention how a Festool sander can actually help them to like sanding (becasue the Festools make it so enjoyable) as well as save a persons lungs!

I never knew there were more people that were crazy anti Festool than actual Festool fan boys.

A thread was shut down, the first ever in the 2 years I was at the forum. No bad talk, no fighting,no this track saw is better than that track saw, just simply one complaint that someone did not want to hear about how "my" tools are better then theirs. And I don't mean my personally,  I mean that anyone's tools are better than his. The administrator said he views all tools to be like Chevy and Ford, just about the same. What the heck, is he nuts. As many know I bash Festools on occasion, I have no loyalty to them, heck, I  have been close to being banned here(long ago) in the past. I have no crazy Festool fan boy fetish. To say it is not worth a discussion about how a certain tool is simply better or that your tool is better than mine is not worth discussion is ludicrous. I mean what the heck is a tool review but statements telling one why the reviewed tool is better than what you have!

I just wasted 2 years and thousand of posts and probably well over 100 literal hours helping people over there. And to shut down a thread I did not even start simply becasue it was stated that Festools could help them was enough to set me off and probably never post there again. Maybe I will post there again someday, my urge to help is fairly strong, but not anytime soon. I am a bit offended after all the help and time I put in at that forum I would not be given the benefit of the doubt when talking about certain tools, especially when the great majority there have not a single tool except a CNC. It's not like here where the guys have actually used the Festools and other tools and on a daily basis at that.

I feel better being here where the guys know what is what and are not simply CNC tool operators that want to push a button and something pop out the other end. For me the CNC is simply a tool  like a band saw. They talk all day about how one CNC is better than the other, but talking about how a Festool is better than another tool is not allowed? If they want to be button pushers I say let them do it without my help.

Okay I vented.

Rant over.

I anyone here interested in a CNC section? If so I am glad to start it and maintain it. A cnc is a fantastic tool to have in your arsenal and I can show you how to build one from scratch. I can help you choose a ready built unit. I can help to program it and even design the files to make stuff with it. And of course help determine what Festools to use to finish up the project you are making with the CNC. I could not live without my CNC, just as I could not live without my Rotex.

When used as one complimentary tool in a shop the CNC is the best thing that has happened to home woodworkers in the last 25 years. When I use my CNC I am still hand building with small shop tools. The CNC is like a saw, that's it, a saw or a router that can make cuts no other could ever make, but no more than that. There are guys here that really think a CNC is more than that and that it takes away from the do it yourself idea of home shop building. They are way off base. I made the CNC with my bare hands. I wrote or at least learned how to use the programs to run the machine and created the files from scratch to cut the projects. That is not factory automation, that is me hand making a tool that helps me to make projects with small shop tools.

The CNC is one tool that I believe everyone should have to compliment the rest of their shop tools. Just like everyone should have a Rotex and CT.  

 

[Jay Knoll]

Dovetail

Sorry for your bad experience -- been there, seen it, bought the T shirt.

Just don't go back there, it isn't worth the angst.

I'm interested in learning more about CNC and would welcome any knowledge you wish to share.  Count this as "yes vote" for a CNC group here.  I guess if we used a Festool router in the machine it would fall under the Festool umbrella.

Jay

 

[nickao]

Though I have graduated to a Chinese spindle I do have plans in the works already for a CNC using the OF 2200. The issue is I simply do not have the money.

I contacted a few dealers in the area once that had a similar interest in CNC and Festool to  ask for a contributed OF 2200 that they might have as an old display or something, but it never played out.

At this  time I just cant take 800.00 out of my pocket and the other several hundred dollars and tens of hours of time to develop a system for an OF 2200 to be a simple bolt on.

If I ever got a "gifted" OF 2200 I would definitely make the plans open source or at least open source to the Festool community or abide by any rules the gift giver set down.  But its just a lot of time and money where I will get no return  other than the fun and satisfaction of giving others a cool CNC plan. I actually even started plans about 12-18 months ago and set them aside.

In reality a Chinese spindle and VFD is cheaper and will kick the OF 2200 rear end in this application. BUT using a Festool OF 2200 that comes on and off the CNC simply so it can be used by hand in a moments notice, plus eliminating 220 V and a VFD(semi complex) does make it a viable option for many. I mean it would be the baddest  CNC with 110 V router made and I would love to design it.

I have not purchased Festools in a long time and really lost any contacts I once had when I dropped 20,000 and was buying Festools on a monthly or even weekly basis so I there is really no one anymore I could ask with a straight face for a free OF 2200.

As far as using one of my Of 1400 or OF 1010's for me its just not very interesting, there are better option out there for that power price point and designing  CNC  set up to use a Festool router just to use a Festool router is not really my thing. The OF 2200 would make it a fair build to the builders that are going to spend the money, the other Festool routers price to performance ratio in my opinion is just not there for CNC. Then again if you already have a Festool router, no still , a Festool guy expects performance and that I can get you more of with a less expensive router option than the smaller Festool routers. The OF 2200 I think is workable and cost effective in that price range if it is removable from the machine or you just want the strongest 110 V regular home made or other router type machine available.

Anyone have a broken OF 2200 or extra laying around? Or if someone can think of a way to make money by giving me the router while I develop the proof of concept let me know.

An OF 2200 quick release router mount dust collection adapter for new or current CNC machines could be a big seller for the online stores. Oops, somoone will do that without me now for sure, hehe.

 

[lambeater]

love CNC and automation would sure become a follower.

Lambeater

 

[Jonhilgen]

Thought about it, I'm in!  Would love to learn and become proficient at operating a cnc, not to mention building one.  Their loss will hopefully be our gain.

Jon

 

[nickao]

Well I have been developing a web site I guess is almost ready for beta release it's called Overkillcnc.com where I will be selling plans and parts for a design I came up with. I am not a professional web designer, but the idea and format is there I believe.

The CNC machine is not a desktop size and definitely Festool expensive and quality, so I wanted to get the less expensive version designed and built before I opened up. In this economy, even though the machine would be 50,000+ if you bought it, still it would cost 10,000 + to build it . So I am working on one that is in the 4000.000 range and a little one in the 1000.00 range too. I think I may use kick starter to get some funds, everyone interested is just short on cash right now to invest in me. I already have 20,000.00 of my own funds into everything.

Its accompanying forums are overkillcncforums.com and a related build log site that will be a place for CNC builders of any design to document their builds called cncbuildlogs.com.

I have not opened them up yet, but I think the format is ready I just need people and a bit of money. The web sites are already paid for and up in maintenance mode(have been for a year). I would like to go open source and I could make money simply by selling certain parts people do not want to make themselves. Places like CNC zone and the private CNC forums I am in are so unorganized, the forum I came up with, for me, is the most organized build log type forum out there. Still, it is untested and unrefined and a bit unfinished.

When I get the balls, well excuse me, nerve, to open them up I will. I just feel I need to do another month or two work first on the sites.

I would like to do something here with a Festool though.

I think I will start a different thread, the Haters thing is not a great thread name for anything except for my original post I think. I did not name the forum or people and I wont as I do love those guys. I guess I am just sensitive when it comes to my Festools!

 

[Memphis Larry]

I would love to have a small cnc for my shop and making one from parts might be the only way I could afford one.  I vote Yes.

 

[VictorL]

Welcome back
I'm highly interested to learn something about CNC.   Initial high cost and lack of space don't allow me to get one overnight, but time changed. Your how to for floor inlays were awesome

Thank you,
VictorL

 

[GPowers]

Welcome back
I'm highly interested to learn something about CNC.   Initial high cost and lack of space don't allow me to get one overnight, but time changed. Your how to for floor inlays were awesome

Thank you,
VictorL

I was just thinking the same thing, space is a big problem.. but very interested in CNC.

 

[nickao]

NOTE Below I am talking about kits that you need to assemble or at least partially assemble, but that's the fun, isn't it. Using nothing more than regular tools most of us already have. If you just want the plans they are going to be absolutely free. My small design is about 60 days from being ready, probably sooner. And it will have a Festool theme to it too, what the heck a Festool FOG theme.

Well guys that is why I am working on an 18" x 18" and 12" x 12" that will blow the doors off one of those little Shark cnc's for less than half the cost too. I am  trying my best to keep it at 1200.00 or less. I am even in talks with a company to make me a plastic cube that covers the machine so when dust collection is attached you could run it on an office desk without to much noise(the Hitachi 2 Hp is the most quiet router I have found so far) or dust. Quality is tough to do at that price point. Of course that would not include the software that you need which can cost anywhere from 50.00 to 2000.00 or more.

Open source is the name of the game for a small, cost effective, yet Festool quality machine. Open source so people can upgrade and come up with things that are better than my initial design as they use the machine. Then they can show everyone else how they did it with a very little amount of money.

Now there are guys and companies that sell little CNC for like 500.00, but  for me if it can't cut with at least the power of a Festool router forget it. I am not into the Dremel type spindle machines(which have their place), just not for me. I love the 3 d carving so any machine I design or have designed does this.

Imagine, go on the net. Take a flat picture, color or black and white or your own picture, even your kids face, process the picture and cut it out in 3 d. That is exactly what I do. And I know I can make this happen in the 1500.00 and less cost range and it will not be a toy either. I will post some samples after Christmas, maybe sooner.

I love making my own inlays, onlays, appliques and 3d carvings. I do not use my machine for cabinets and such, though you can. I only use my machine for things I could not possibly do with my shop tools. Otherwise it gets to be like a factory job cutting panels, that's not what I am about, but of course one could do that. Oh, I love making the lawn art too. I have already posted some of the halloween stuff I have done here on the forum using my kids coloring books for the pictures to be carved. For me that is a lot of fun, coloring book to lawn in a couple hours.

 

[stairman]

Festool haters?  ???  where is this forum?    I want to register so I can post there!  I see an opportunity to make some money (if there are a few of these idiots closeby,  as no one is going to pay-up on a lost bet made online on a message board [tongue]  haha!

the first "bet" that comes to mind is this:

we take a cut list for an average size kitchen,  the Festool hater can use a CNC, non Festool power tools a sliding table saw or any combination thereof.

I get to use a TS and guiderails...

now that I think of it,  there isn't much that I can't do FASTER, BETTER, SAFER, QUIETER with Festool,  and I defy anyone to try to "outcut" me with anything from another power tool up to and including a standard CNC Router,  say...  up to a 12hp spindle.

I wonder if Festool would like to sponsor a "Challenge Event" like this?

I would LOVE to see a CNC forum added to FOG.  I am working on a CNC design right now,  and hope to start  the initial assembly by this Spring-

Summer.  although, a good portion of the machine is already in use in my shop, since  I'm designing my CNC around my Legacy EX1000 Mill.  -picture a 6' Legacy mill converted to CNC, stretched to 8',  and it also cuts 4x8 sheet goods as a CNC.  all functions can be operated via CNC  or manually.

Space is a real concern for me,  but I have another CNC design that takes up only (roughly) 8sq ft of shop space but is full sheet capable.

sorry to hear you ran into such a problem on the CNC forum you've been using,  but from the sound of it,  it isn't much of a forum anyway,  or something like this would never have happened.

 

[nickao]

Well, the forum I love and the guys I have gotten to know over the last 2 years are amazing and there is some great talent there. I am not mad a single one person there or even the administrator. Reflecting a bit more I think my response to  the closing of the thread is kind of a tipping point with a few other issues I had that were building up, which really are not relevant here. Lets just say that I have been converted to an open source guy.

For me a thread should never be closed  except for personal attacks, profanity or racism, period. Especially in a forum  like that.

It's not the Festool forum where it is a huge company and the jobs of  thousands of people can be at stake so closing threads for slightly different reasons to protect the interests of the compnsy are understood. Still, there are not a whole lot of threads being closed or deleted here at the FOG. For me it is the old, "if you do not like it, do not read it" and here it is to, for the most part.

Legacy mills are cool and it sounds like a great CNC  project!

 

[fritter63]

I would love to have/operate a CNC machine, but the cost (shopbot) or time involved for a DIY make it impractical for the hobbyist like me.

I found a better solution. Out in Denver I have a friend who runs a shopbot for doing CNC on the parts he makes for his custom guitars. He was also willing to contract out for random projects, so I would make a drawing in the cad system (say for an MDF template for guitar bodies or jigs) and then send him the drawing. He'd put it into his CNC software and cut the parts for me. The cost was a lot less than investing in a full CNC setup for the occasional part.

I even had him do inlays for me on my last pair of guitars. They have paua abalone elliptical inlays on the fretboard, and I sent the fret boards down with the raw shell. He was able to cut out the inlay pockets on the fretboard, and then produce shell ovals which just popped right into fretboard with perfect tolerances.

 

[nickao]

Yeah but that totally eliminates the hobby and fun.

Of course you can source stuff out. But the entire premise of making your own is the fun and money that can be saved and most of all the knowledge of, dam I made that CNC machine!. Most anyone that owns a Kapex has a room for an 18" x 18" CNC and can afford 1200.00. So I just do not buy the space and money thing, especially on the FOG.

Now if that is not your thing, that is trying to create a machine from nothing that can make stuff for you great, but it is great fun and a huge money saver. My machine, not be be an braggart, is WAY better than a Shopbot for about 30% of the cost. My electronics are twice as advanced,  my motors are larger and my bed is bigger. Shobots are great, but if one has the inclination to make their own machine they will laugh at the guys that blew 15000.00 to 30,000 on a shop bot. Also a builder of their own CNC will have amassed more knowledge that anyone that just buys a Shopbot and started cutting ever will. A typical Bot owner has no idea how the thing actually works, they just make a call for repair if it breaks, hey its under warranty. That type of person is best off buying a ready made Shopbot. They may just need production and that's great, but not really what making your own machine is about.

And for the people that really want a CNC and just can not afford it, building their own is the only way they have to go to get one. And believe me I never met anyone that regretted it. Even a guy I knew that got out of it just sold his machine for 4800.00. It cost him 2000.00 to build and he used it for 2 years. He gained a wealth of knowledge had and fun and then got out with a final profit as well as the money he made selling all the things he made with it.

So for the people that say hey I could just source it out you are right that's what they should do.

Remember, this is a hobby in itself, like woodworking.

It's not impracticable, you just in your heart do not have the passion to do it or you would simply do it and there is nothing wrong with that. I know guys in studio apartments with CNC machines. I even have some pics of stuff one made, I will post them up.

 

[jmbfestool]

Im interested in one of these!  This is what I have been looking at for ages!  CANT WAIT to get one when I have built my workshop!
http://www.multicam.com/eng/Products/nestedbase.html

BUT  I would love to build one myself also!  What I would like to do is build a mini version with the help of the MulticamNestedbase and fit the OFF2200 on it for site(on the job) use but also like you say Dovetail to LEARN you can only learn by building on for your self and I think I will enjoy building one!  Seen as your offering I would deffos ask for your advice when the time comes!

JMB

 

[fritter63]

Remember, this is a hobby in itself, like woodworking.

It's not impracticable, you just in your heart do not have the passion to do it or you would simply do it and there is nothing wrong with that. I know guys in studio apartments with CNC machines. I even have some pics of stuff one made, I will post them up.

Well, exactly. Woodworking is my therapy, after working on computers/software all day long (and for the last 25 years). So in part, I just don't want to have to deal that in my shop.  [cool]

 

[nickao]

I absolutely agree with that.

My hobby is Woodworking and CNC. My work is Woodworking and now CNC.

My background in college is Electronics Engineering Technology and Computer Science. My work has always been as carpenter and then wood worker. So I live both, BUT I do it out of the home. I do not have to go off to an office and I am sure I would look at things differently if I had to. I love the combination of both, others dont.

Actually, its many things, its computer software, computer hardware, milling, mechanical, woodworking , electrical , electronics and general handyman work. You can even add in welding and a bunch of other stuff depending on how you want to go with it.

Keep your woodworking like therapy and you are doing the right thing in my opinion.

And let me know if you ever need something to finish off one of your projects, a carved piece or whatever.

 

[redbird]

Great idea of a cnc specific area here. We have just started looking at them and would love more information before taking the plunge.

 

[nickao]

Im interested in one of these!  This is what I have been looking at for ages!  CANT WAIT to get one when I have built my workshop!
http://www.multicam.com/eng/Products/nestedbase.html

BUT  I would love to build one myself also!  What I would like to do is build a mini version with the help of the MulticamNestedbase and fit the OFF2200 on it for site(on the job) use but also like you say Dovetail to LEARN you can only learn by building on for your self and I think I will enjoy building one!  Seen as your offering I would deffos ask for your advice when the time comes!

JMB

If you can afford a Multicam I say go for it. I have nothing bad to say about them at all, except dam they are nice machines and something to measure our home made machines against!

Still, other than mass production, very thick pieces more than 2", multiple ply sheets and some metal work it really can't do anything you can't do with a home brew, albeit slower. But just as precise and accurate.

Those are monster machines and I would take one. Usually the guys getting the larger Multicams units pay someone to operate it, so really the operator knows the software, the owner knows nothing and no one knows how the thing actually works, you call Multi for service work. Which as I said is not really for someone getting into a home CNC scenario. Not to mention, believe it or not, one of my machines still has equivalent electronics than even many of their models costing a 100,000.00. Its the mass, speed and power you get from a company like that and service. But we can be as accurate and precise in a WOOD  application for sure. For the tolerances in metal fab a home brew would have to go a lot farther then I  personally have ever gone, yet. But hey, we are wood guys here! I do cut aluminum though. 

 

[jmbfestool]

Im interested in one of these!  This is what I have been looking at for ages!  CANT WAIT to get one when I have built my workshop!
http://www.multicam.com/eng/Products/nestedbase.html

BUT  I would love to build one myself also!  What I would like to do is build a mini version with the help of the MulticamNestedbase and fit the OFF2200 on it for site(on the job) use but also like you say Dovetail to LEARN you can only learn by building on for your self and I think I will enjoy building one!  Seen as your offering I would deffos ask for your advice when the time comes!

JMB

If you can afford a Multicam I say go for it. I have nothing bad to say about them at all, except dam they are nice machines and something to measure our home made machines against!

Still, other than mass production, very thick pieces more than 2", multiple ply sheets and some metal work it really can't do anything you can't do with a home brew, albeit slower. But just as precise and accurate.

Those are monster machines and I would take one. Usually the guys getting the larger Multicams units pay someone to operate it, so really the operator knows the software, the owner knows nothing and no one knows how the thing actually works, you call Multi for service work. Which as I said is not really for someone getting into a home CNC scenario. Not to mention, believe it or not, one of my machines still has equivalent electronics than even many of their models costing a 100,000.00. Its the mass, speed and power you get from a company like that and service. But we can be as accurate and precise in a WOOD  application for sure. For the tolerances in metal fab a home brew would have to go a lot farther then I  personally have ever gone, yet. But hey, we are wood guys here! I do cut aluminum though. 

Good to hear they are good then had the company call me not so long ago wondering when my workshop is ready.... soon? Lol

Well I want it for making money but I would like to build an wooden one any way in the future but I could use the multicam to build it! The very reasons you said speed,mass and power is why I would rather buy one than build one. As I have looked around and done some searching and found alot of people like your self saying a home built one can do the same stuff just as accurate for wood work just not as fast.  Also the multi heads with scoring blade and drill holes 32centres and horizontal drills are all the features I would like to have on my cnc and i dont see any of that on a home made CNC I think it's because of the weight and strain it would put on a wooden Gantry.

Well this owner will know how to use the multicam (well I hope I will) lol