Festool improvements

[mcooley]

List of suggested improvements on Festool models below:

Router 1400: LED light, textured grip on handle, "locking knob" for plunging also located on top of router for better control, better visibility through dust shroud

Domino 500: LED light, textured grip on handle, better clearance between dust extractor shroud and body of machine (i.e. knuckle clearance), high visibility plastic for crosshair marks, truly continuous depth adjustment for plunging, level to help ensure Domino is flat, paddles and pins included on unit

TS 55: Textured grip on plunging handle, LED light integrated near splinter guard, integrated dust shroud along leading edge of saw near blade

Rotex 125: Better control and balancing of machine, textured grip on barrel, narrower barrel for better ergonomics, including, more nuanced shape of the barrel

MFT: Lighter and less movement of legs for mobile use, improve knobs for locking legs, improve locking mechanisms for track, including, a hole where the alignment tab seats in track to make knowing if it is visibly seated correctly without bending over and looking underneath etc., extension wings on either side of table for extending the table to the full length of a tracksaw track

New Tool Ideas:

1. A lightweight "sawhorse" with MFT like functionality but folds flat and is easy to lift.
2. Autonomous roving orbital sander, programmable for sheet good sanding and boards
3. Festool Authorized 3D printable files for small items like power cord holders, cord wranglers and other useful tool improvements that require simple solutions (e.g. lightweight on-board LED lights that can be moved and attached to various areas of the tool and MFT table, small portable plastic hood for attaching to vac hose for use on MFT table while planing or hand sanding)     

 

[peter halle]

Sometimes things get missed in all the goings on of the forum and work schedules.

Tagging this thread to enhance visibility to those intended:  [member=57769]TylerC[/member] [member=101]Festool USA[/member]

Peter

 

[DeformedTree]

List of suggested improvements on Festool models below:

Router 1400: LED light,

Domino 500: LED light,

TS 55: LED light integrated near splinter guard,

1. A lightweight "sawhorse" with MFT like functionality but folds flat and is easy to lift.
2. Autonomous roving orbital sander, programmable for sheet good sanding and boards
3. Festool Authorized 3D printable files for small items like power cord holders, cord wranglers and other useful tool improvements that require simple solutions (e.g. lightweight on-board LED lights that can be moved and attached to various areas of the tool and MFT table, small portable plastic hood for attaching to vac hose for use on MFT table while planing or hand sanding)   

I think you could tweak it and just say "LED all the Things"  It does seam odd they don't have this. But I would assume it's due to product life cycle with the basic designs having been around for a long time.

I don't know about adding texture/grippiness to the tools. Would just build up filth and such over time.

Far as the saw horse, I don't want to think about how much Festool would charge for an MFT without a top. There all ready are good plastic ones out there. Most are the same horse under many different brands B&D, dewalt.  The fold flat, are very light, accept 2x4s on top, etc.

Robo-Sanders.  People have done kickstarter like projects for such things, but they simple haven't shown anything real, basically due to physics. Nothing to react the forces, humans are a really impressive clamp.

 

[Svar]

LED on routers, yes. Track saw? I never even look at the cut when TS is on the track. It would make sense on HK line.
Second MFT improvements. Legs should just unfold and lock open without turning knobs. Fold with push of a button/lever. Plenty of designs around to choose from. Extension wings with the same concept as CMS wings would be nice.

Domino 500: ... better clearance between dust extractor shroud and body of machine (i.e. knuckle clearance)

Definitely that.

 

[mcooley]

There's a roving router CNC out there but the basic idea doesn't seem that difficult to solve for sanding. The orbital pad would need to retract and the wheels non-marring but a wide wheelbase should suffice for control and consistency of sanding etc.

The handle being smooth plastic like on the 1400 router always annoys me. For example, the fact the handle tapers at the end makes lifting precarious, especially, if your hands are not clean or it has been a long day etc.

I look at the blade often on my TS 55 before cutting to line up cuts with my marks etc. I've done it enough times that I have gotten quite accurate. But a light helps.

A clip-on light for the router would be a nice item for Lee Valley. Thinking a ring of LED's powered by a battery cradled above the dust shroud. Similar to Mirock's design on YouTube.

The 3D file warehouse is an area Festool needs to enter in my opinion. The fact we haven't seen any rapid prototyping tools is a disappointment as well. Their support of Shaper Origin is cool but not enough I don't think. The younger wood workers expect it. The fact Festo does automation makes not having the tech in Festool doubly strange. 

 

[DeformedTree]

MFT: Lighter and less movement of legs for mobile use, improve knobs for locking legs, improve locking mechanisms for track, including, a hole where the alignment tab seats in track to make knowing if it is visibly seated correctly without bending over and looking underneath etc., extension wings on either side of table for extending the table to the full length of a tracksaw track

I could be wrong, but I don't think MFT legs offer much in adjustability.  This is something that has left me wondering what I will do with one as the space I will be using it does not have level floors.  Like a lot of basements it has large amounts of pitch towards floor drains.  A table were all the legs can adjust a bunch, like 100mm would be great. I would think for both basement dwellers, garage users, people out side, etc.  Being able to adjust all the legs would be great.  Something like camera tripod legs with lever locks.  But at the very least long threaded pivoting pads.  Same would apply to a CMS.  Lots of folks work on far less than ideal floors.

 

[Cheese]

I could be wrong, but I don't think MFT legs offer much in adjustability.  This is something that has left me wondering what I will do with one as the space I will be using it does not have level floors. 

Ya I've always questioned the viability of an MFT for my work. Kind of expensive, kind of heavy and kind of flexy...and not in a good way.  I don't do a lot of hand planing, but the MFT's I've used that others own, always left me rather unimpressed. Working with one hand while trying to brace the beast with my leg or a knee...no thanks.

So reduce the weight 10-15# by substituting more aluminum structural members and come up with a lighter weight top. Then make sure this thing hooks itself to the floor...the suggestion of tripod style adjustments is a good idea. At a price of $700 the current configuration is under engineered and over priced.  After using friends MFT's, I've never wanted one and I've never bought one.

 

[DeformedTree]

I could be wrong, but I don't think MFT legs offer much in adjustability.  This is something that has left me wondering what I will do with one as the space I will be using it does not have level floors. 

Ya I've always questioned the viability of an MFT for my work. Kind of expensive, kind of heavy and kind of flexy...and not in a good way.  I don't do a lot of hand planing, but the MFT's I've used that others own, always left me rather unimpressed. Working with one hand while trying to brace the beast with my leg or a knee...no thanks.

So reduce the weight 10-15# by substituting more aluminum structural members and come up with a lighter weight top. Then make sure this thing hooks itself to the floor...the suggestion of tripod style adjustments is a good idea. At a price of $700 the current configuration is under engineered and over priced.  After using friends MFT's, I've never wanted one and I've never bought one.

I can go either way on the MFT,  I get it in some respects, others I just don't know.  If you got a big shop for proper tables, I don't think it makes much sense, or rather making more purpose built setups makes more sense.  If you need to move around, or small space where you might want to pack it away, it starts to make sense and the compromises/cost can be a bit more acceptable.  Right now I'm focused on having setup that I can pack up and move/pack up and store as it very well may sit for periods of time after I finish rebuilding my house.  This is also why I intend to buy a CMS and "smuggle" in some bits from Europe to make it something to replace other tools.

I think there is improvements Festool could do in merging MFT and CMS better and making it more of a pile of parts that you assemble to fit your needs.  What I don't like is things like a 2 legged CMS that is now required to connect to an MFT.  Why not allow the freestanding model to attach to an MFT by folding 2 legs, or maybe have a CMS XL  that is a top that drops into a MFT base.  Compromises of compactness/portability is fine. Where it goes bad is if someone is forced to make a choice for one path or another that doesn't allow also doing the other.  Thus the problem of there being 2 CMS configs.

 

[mcooley]

Yes, always disappointing how much the MFT moves when planing etc. It is way too heavy for loading and unloading as well. I took a thin piece of plywood and put two casters on either end with socket screws protruding which fit into the aluminum extrusion, then, I skate the table from my vehicle to where I am working etc. It works. But as we often say here why are we the ones coming up with these solutions after paying so much for the product?

Anyhow, I try to keep my shop as mobile as possible even though I have a large dedicated space etc. I do very low volume custom work for clients but I always like having open space rather than filling every square inch up.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Prior to the MFT3 there were two sizes of MFT.

I have two of the smaller and one large.
If an MFT will be needed on site I rarely take the larger one.

 

[Kodi Crescent]

I don't work at Festool.  I have worked in a Product Development role, however.  It's hard to take requests like this seriously.

The improvement list provides solutions but doesn't describe specific problems or use cases.  How would a product developer know they met the requirement or solved the problem?  Are there other solutions to the problem?

For example, nearly all the requests have "Add LED's".  So if they added LED's to the handle, that would satisfy the requirement.  However, you may be describing trouble with the "visibility of the cut during operation".  Would a different color material reflect more light into the cut area than the current colors?  Are there other options for solving the problem other than the new electronics, molds, castings, etc. required to "Add LED's"?

How much extra per tool are you and the target market willing to pay for these extra features?  They seem to be selling the products just fine now.  What's their incentive to make these expensive "improvements"?

 

[Cheese]

Hey Kodi, I think this is much more like a brainstorming operation wherein all suggestions are acknowledged and the more viable suggestions will be parsed out at a later date when the “wild ones” are no longer in attendance.

In a typical brainstorming session, at the very start, it’s announced to all present, that NO...NO...NO idea is a bad idea which ultimately brings up some of the most ridiculous ideas in the world because anyone can shovel out shat and by the rules, it has to be entered on the blackboard per the rules of the session.

Therefore, after spewing, the fringe element has had their 15 minutes in the spotlight and they’re satiated while later, the cooler heads can prevail and hopefully something can be figured out.

I think it’s important to throw ideas out there, but it’s up to Festool to pick and choose. Hopefully they choose the right improvements and in the right order of implementation.  [big grin]

 

[James Biddle]

I don't work at Festool.  I have worked in a Product Development role, however.  It's hard to take requests like this seriously.

The improvement list provides solutions but doesn't describe specific problems or use cases.  How would a product developer know they met the requirement or solved the problem?  Are there other solutions to the problem?

For example, nearly all the requests have "Add LED's".  So if they added LED's to the handle, that would satisfy the requirement.  However, you may be describing trouble with the "visibility of the cut during operation".  Would a different color material reflect more light into the cut area than the current colors?  Are there other options for solving the problem other than the new electronics, molds, castings, etc. required to "Add LED's"?

How much extra per tool are you and the target market willing to pay for these extra features?  They seem to be selling the products just fine now.  What's their incentive to make these expensive "improvements"?

You mean like make the DC hose lock on the tool?

 

[Bob D.]

MFT: Lighter and less movement of legs for mobile use, improve knobs for locking legs, improve locking mechanisms for track, including, a hole where the alignment tab seats in track to make knowing if it is visibly seated correctly without bending over and looking underneath etc., extension wings on either side of table for extending the table to the full length of a tracksaw track

I could be wrong, but I don't think MFT legs offer much in adjustability.  This is something that has left me wondering what I will do with one as the space I will be using it does not have level floors.  Like a lot of basements it has large amounts of pitch towards floor drains.  A table were all the legs can adjust a bunch, like 100mm would be great. I would think for both basement dwellers, garage users, people out side, etc.  Being able to adjust all the legs would be great.  Something like camera tripod legs with lever locks.  But at the very least long threaded pivoting pads.  Same would apply to a CMS.  Lots of folks work on far less than ideal floors.

I too would like to see more adjustability on the MFT legs. Mine is setup in my basement shop and the floor pitches near the MFT location toward a floor drain as mentioned. Since there is such limited adjustment in the one leg I had to make two shims from 3/4 plywood in which I bored a shallow hole with a forstner bit to create a socket for the leg to rest in and achieve the correct height for that leg. I fastened some 1/16" neoprene to the underside so they wouldn't slip on the floor but in reality the floor is not finished that smoothly that I have to worry about it. Adding adjustability to all four legs would be a vast improvement.

A LED light that could be moved/shared between two or more tools would be nice. Maybe a series of plastic bases that you affix to the tool and the light gets snapped into as you move it from one tool to the next. a pair of AA batteries can supply hours of light. This allows for retro fitting to the thousands of existing tools already out there.

Actually doesn't have to come from Festool, an independent supplier could offer this easily for purchase through an online 3D print shop and you buy whatever bases you need for your collection of tools. If I had a 3D printer I would look into this. I know some of you here do. I seem to recall seeing a mini-MagLight size/style LED light somewhere with a pivoting head that might be a good candidate for something like this.

Here's one that's even the right color. Probably too big to mount on a small router and such, but something like this but smaller would work I think if you created a base that could secure it to a tool and no danger of it coming loose.https://www.everlightmfg.com/product/led-swivel-head-flashlight-elm-8141/

 

[Bob D.]

I don't work at Festool.  I have worked in a Product Development role, however.  It's hard to take requests like this seriously.

The improvement list provides solutions but doesn't describe specific problems or use cases.  How would a product developer know they met the requirement or solved the problem?  Are there other solutions to the problem?

For example, nearly all the requests have "Add LED's".  So if they added LED's to the handle, that would satisfy the requirement.  However, you may be describing trouble with the "visibility of the cut during operation".  Would a different color material reflect more light into the cut area than the current colors?  Are there other options for solving the problem other than the new electronics, molds, castings, etc. required to "Add LED's"?

How much extra per tool are you and the target market willing to pay for these extra features?  They seem to be selling the products just fine now.  What's their incentive to make these expensive "improvements"?

Well I would think someone working in product development would poll your user base to assess the width and breadth of their concerns and suggestions for improvements and then, being as they ARE the product development arm, come up with some solutions to address those concerns that take safety and use of their current or available production capabilities into account. Something the end user has little knowledge of.

On what do you base your claim of 'expensive improvements'? The easiest way to find out what the market will bear is to ask them or listen when they speak as is happening right here in this thread on a Festool operated site, so not tucked away in some dark corner of the web where they have to go looking for it. If Festool wants to improve their products all they need do is monitor this site and glean dozens of suggestions or first hand accounts or solutions or problems and use those as the basis for making improvements. Peter took a step in that direction by flagging the thread for Tyler and FestoolUSA, a good move I think.

If you expect end users who have issues or suggestions with your products to solve all the development problems for you so you can make and sell them I think you owe them something for their product development efforts.

 

[ScotF]

Interesting thread. I think some improvements come by way of people using tools in ways not originally intended. I think the MFT is a good example. It was designed as a portable work surface for hand power tool use, finishing, assembly, etc. I am not sure it was designed for heavy hand-tool use like planing boards. Can you use it in that fashion? Yes. Was it designed for that? Probably not. It is not a several hundred pound solid wood bench designed for that type of use.

I think a challenge any tool company has in adding features that might be gimmicky and that is where product development can go awry. It requires lots of inputs and questioning end-users and at the end of the day no one product/feature set is going to satisfy the needs of everyone. I think led lights make sense on some tools and others I see no value. Others might find real value on those same tools where I find it not as useful. They can add on-off functionalty, but that adds to the cost of the tool. Maybe that is the right answer, maybe not.

I do agree with allowing brainstorming of ideas because some things that seem completely crazy and an outlier might just become the next big idea. 30 years ago who would have thought combining biscuit joinery with a router bit would be a good idea? Fast forward today and the Domino for many, has replaced traditional joinery techniques.

 

[Kodi Crescent]

Well I would think someone working in product development would poll your user base to assess the width and breadth of their concerns and suggestions for improvements and then, being as they ARE the product development arm, come up with some solutions to address those concerns that take safety and use of their current or available production capabilities into account. Something the end user has little knowledge of.

On what do you base your claim of 'expensive improvements'? The easiest way to find out what the market will bear is to ask them or listen when they speak as is happening right here in this thread on a Festool operated site, so not tucked away in some dark corner of the web where they have to go looking for it. If Festool wants to improve their products all they need do is monitor this site and glean dozens of suggestions or first hand accounts or solutions or problems and use those as the basis for making improvements. Peter took a step in that direction by flagging the thread for Tyler and FestoolUSA, a good move I think.

If you expect end users who have issues or suggestions with your products to solve all the development problems for you so you can make and sell them I think you owe them something for their product development efforts.

And herein lies one of the issues  YOU are telling someone in Product Development what YOU think THEIR job is (or should be).  Are you in a  Product Development role?

A person in Product Development can certainly poll people about what they want in a product.  That's certainly a means of collecting data.  However, it's not a particularly effective way to collect quality data.

What people say they want, and what they actually want or need, are often quite different.  This isn't apparent until you observe people using products in actual work environments performing real work.  Ignore what they say, and watch what they DO.  Then you arrive at insights to the problem.

With regards to "expensive" - You could probably go to some electronics store and pick up a package of white LED's for a quarter or less each.  But that's not the end of the story.  Think about it from the company's perspective. 

If I decided to "Add an LED", what specifications are needed for the LED's?  I have to source them somewhere.  LED's require electrical input within certain specifications.  Where will I source the power output for the LED input?  Most likely a circuit in the device.  Does the current board have the capability or capacity to provide the correct power output?  If not, I need to source a new board.  Will the new board fit within the device footprint?  If not, I need to increase the device footprint. 

Once I solve the power and board requirements, where will I mount the LED?  In the case, most likely.  Can the mold for the case be modified to hold the new LED?  If not, I need to have a new mold made.  While I'm at it, will the case design handle any extra heat from the LED?  If not, I need to redesign the venting in the case. 

Does adding an LED create any regulatory issues with regards to lighting, strobe effects, etc. that will become a legal risk?

Lots of resources required for what seems like a simple "Add LED's" request.  And so it goes...

Meanwhile, observations and interview data revealed that end users were performing work in poorly lit conditions with outdated prescription eyewear.  They blamed the lack of visibility on the tool, rather than improving working conditions.

You can't make this stuff up.

 

[Svar]

With regards to "expensive" - You could probably go to some electronics store and pick up a package of white LED's for a quarter or less each.  But that's not the end of the story.  Think about it from the company's perspective. 
If I decided to "Add an LED", what specifications are needed for the LED's?  I have to source them somewhere.  LED's require electrical input within certain specifications.  Where will I source the power output for the LED input?  Most likely a circuit in the device.  Does the current board have the capability or capacity to provide the correct power output?  If not, I need to source a new board.  Will the new board fit within the device footprint?  If not, I need to increase the device footprint. 
Once I solve the power and board requirements, where will I mount the LED?  In the case, most likely.  Can the mold for the case be modified to hold the new LED?  If not, I need to have a new mold made.  While I'm at it, will the case design handle any extra heat from the LED?  If not, I need to redesign the venting in the case. 
Does adding an LED create any regulatory issues with regards to lighting, strobe effects, etc. that will become a legal risk?
Lots of resources required for what seems like a simple "Add LED's" request.  And so it goes...
Meanwhile, observations and interview data revealed that end users were performing work in poorly lit conditions with outdated prescription eyewear.  They blamed the lack of visibility on the tool, rather than improving working conditions.

So what you are saying is that customers should stop whining and get new prescription glasses instead of company improving the product.

Meanwhile in the real world manufacturers are adding LEDs and getting competitive advantage. Somehow they get around unbearable obstacles you describe and manage to stick LEDs even on cheap routers. If you really want to do something, you'll find a way. If you don't, you'll find an excuse. There are end users that did it with OF1400.

Extra light in the obscured cutter area on a hand guided tool is very useful with or without eyewear. It's not a whim or a gimmick.

 

[Cheese]

Talking about sticking lights on routers...I owned a Craftsman router 25-30 years ago that had miniature light bulbs within the router base cavity. However there were two MAJOR issues with that solution:

1. The vibration took out the bulb filaments on a regular basis.
2. The Craftsman router didn't have any dust collection so even when the bulbs were working, you still couldn't see what you were doing.

I'm surprised that 30 years later we're still talking about this, especially on a manufacturers website that prides themselves on DC across all of their product lines. Seems like this should have happened right after the first SysLite was released.  [scratch chin]

Here's Micro Fence's solution. If a little company in California can figure this out, I'd hope that a medium sized international company would be able to follow suit.  [eek]  Check out the video.
https://microfence.com/product/light-ring-kits/

[attachimg=1]

 

[RKA]

I'm going to tell my wife she doesn't need better headlights on the car, she just needs glasses and needs to drive during the day!  [smile]

If I don't post after tonight, can someone come look for me?