Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America

[Throwback7r]

I am with the guy that asked about service? Also, I work with my festools every day so I use metric every day.  With that being said ,creating a system that allows you to work smarter and more efficiently, does not really work well when some your tools are Metric and one or two of them are imperial. Since you will be offering to convert metric tools to imperial will you offer to change the imperial tools to metric, and if not why not? Please help me understand how this will create a system that allows you to work smarter and more efficiently if we have to switch between 2 measuring systems?

 

[QuailRider43]

Jebus H. Tap-dancing Christo!  [eek]  Canadian here.  I've invested thousands in Festool, and will likely spend thousands more in the future... and I will NOT purchase an imperial-only Festool product.  EVER!  Imperial is a horrible throw-back that I've happily abandoned wherever possible.  I understand the desire to crack the US market, but please give your users a choice.  Just include a dual scale, or a swap-able imperial scale or dial as an option.  How hard can it be to allow both units?  If you really want to crack the US market, how about just lowering your prices and improving availability?  [mad]

 

[vkumar]

If only the sticker is changing, it should be easy and cost effective to offer both imperial and metric.  That is something a premium tool manufacturer would do.
Each dealer could order whatever he felt that he could sell.

[member=57769]TylerC[/member] I agree with this.  Please consider.

 

[semenza]

Just a note ...... it looks from the pictures Tyler posted that we are not really talking about a sticker, at least for the saws. It looks to me like the scales are printed on the tool plastic.

Seth

 

[bobfog]

Just a note ...... it looks from the pictures Tyler posted that we are not really talking about a sticker, at least for the saws. It looks to me like the scales are printed on the tool plastic.

Seth

But still a very cheap and interchangeable part, nonetheless?

 

[Paul G]

To be honest, I knew that there would be some negative reactions on the FOG. You all are our most passionate and long-time customers, and you're more likely to be committed to metric than other craftsmen. I completely understand that some of you aren't happy about this, and you're entitled to that.

Perhaps this was a worse reaction than you anticipated? I don't see many happy folks here at all. I haven't seen the positive reactions in the wider industry, but I wonder do they know that this is a change of labeling only and things like the track saw depth clicks are still metric along with other tools that won't be changing resulting in a necesary metric/imperial hodgepodge.

I don't mind criticism. It makes Festool better. I'd just ask that you give us the benefit of the doubt. That doesn't mean that you have to like this decision, but please appreciate that we're trying -- sometimes succeeding, sometimes failing, sometimes TBD -- to do what's in the best interest of a wide variety of people (current customers, new/potential customers, dealers, and ourselves to name a few). It's a tricky balancing act, and I'm sure that you can relate to that in your own work or personal lives. This decision was made because SO many people over the years have asked us to do so. We can't please everyone.

How about this for a plan:
If you have a specific question, please ask by the end of tomorrow (Friday). If it's a question that you've already asked that hasn't been (thoroughly) answered, feel free to ask again. I'll be traveling all next week with several other people involved in this decision and transition. During the trip, I'll try to get as many answers and clarifications that I can.

We'll be traveling to Germany, so please be patient if I'm slow to post answers. Due to the combination of jetlag and a jam-packed itinerary, I can almost guarantee that I won't be on the FOG much.

We don't necessarily need to shut this thread down after tomorrow night, but let's try to generally wrap it up then -- at least until I return with your answers. Sound fair?

I doubt my questions will be answered substantively but here goes:

-Why didn't Festool pursue a dual scale strategy where ever possible?
-If no dual scales are offered, what actually makes it so insurmountable to offer both the metric and imperial versions for sale?

'It's just too hard' isn't a substantive answer. Places like Woodpecker do it all the time.

 

[Hunter]

In the hopes that this decision can still be changed: I think this is a short sighted mistake.

Objectively, Metric is simply a better system.  A system of measurement where all units are divisible by 10 is simply more rational and less error prone.  The rest of the world didn't switch to metric over time because it was fun, it switched because it's better. Even in the US, precision and scientific fields have moved or been moving to metric for a while now.  I know there are plenty who either legitimately haven't been touched by this trend or have managed to ignore it, but the trend is there.  Every year more stuff is done in metric, not less.

Personally, I was raised using the imperial system.  Good old feet and inches... But my woodworking has improved since/because I switched.  It's so much easier to operate in mm.  Quick, what's half of 53" 7/32.... Heck the fraction part alone is annoying and 53.21875 would be easier to work with. But I can divide 1352mm in half without even using fingers (or toes).  Even when people give me initial measurements in inches, I just convert and round to the nearest even millimeter (and I do mean "even", as in "ends with an even number").  That works great, and the slight loss in initial measurement accuracy never matters because people who give imperial measurements never expect better than 1/8" accuracy anyhow. Heck, even my sheet goods in the US are normally metric despite the labeling... 3/4" ply never measures exactly 3/4" but for giggles check it with a metric tape and you'll see why (19mm).

Please keep Festool precise, uniformly standard, and metric.  Please keep supplying, or being willing to supply, the imperial overlay stickers for people who want it.

I simply will not buy another woodworking tool that is imperial.  I purposely chose every tape, stick, rule, and square in metric and will not go back. If Festool doesn't support this here in NA then I will possibly import, but more likely will find another brand that will. I do love my Festools, and am so very glad that I already have most of the tools mentioned, otherwise I would right now be contemplating how to move immediately away from Festool. What I would not do is buy an imperial Festool, so if you want to cater to me or anyone like me then you should expand the current TS55REQ system (optional labels) to the other tools and not force a backwards step on people who don't want it.

Hopeful regards,
  Hunter

 

[epicxt]

Count me as another person in opposition to this move by Festool. Being in the US basically meant that to use the tools offered by Festool effectively one had to embrace the metric system in our work. I'm disappointed that Festool has taken this stance to not offer continued availability of certain tools in metric, and the ones that are being changed to Imperial are actually a mish-mash of the two systems, or "Imperi-metric".
I support their desire to make offerings that can have a broader market appeal in the US, but am dead set against doing that by abandoning the users that established their foothold here.
Personally, I think that the better step is to offer both, as has been stated before, and also put more effort into making the tools that we need available here. Also, expanding Imperial sized router accessories or importing more metric router bits would go a long way. I do a lot of mortising using the mfs system and am often frustrated by the lack of metric spiral bits or imperial copy rings for the 1400. I know that the copy rings are offered in Imperial sizing for the 2200, but can't seem to locate them for the 1400.

Anyway, hats off to you, @TylerC for weathering the storm. It seems a lot of this uproar could have been avoided by polling the user base before moving ahead with such a broad policy.

 

[Master Carpenter]

I've only scanned half of this thread so I apologize if this is off.

Which scale used doesn't matter much to me because I can work in both equally well. It's not that hard and don't see it as a big deal. I can understand wanting to keep all tools on the same system thou, when I build cabinets its metric day and the tape I use only has metric on it, the rest of the time I work in imperial.

What I want for scales on my tools is a digital readout like my calipers. If festool is as great as there marketing tells us, I think that level of precision is missing. I don't use calipers all the time, but when precision matters, it's the best way.  I'd be able to quickly measure my material and set my tool to exactly what I want. And most calipers have a button to go from metric to imperial fractions to imperial decimal.

 

[nclemmons]

[member=24979]1951CorrectCraft[/member] - I was in the store yesterday looking at the tools. The UG cart has stick on metal tape.  You could pull it off, use some solvent to remove the adhesive and replace it with a Starrett stick-on tape cut at the right location on the scale.  Starrett offers it in both left and right reading versions, in Imperial and in combination Imperial and metric. 

I think the same tape might work on the parallel guides.

It's under $10 for each side.  Seems like Festool and Starrett should be talking. 

 

[Keifer]

So, after this change to Imperial fails to generate substantial additional sales in NA, how long will it be until I can purchase my Metric tools again?

 

[JimD]

I realize I am in the minority on this forum but I prefer Imperial measurements and it was one of the reasons I bought a DeWalt track saw and not a Festool (price was also a significant factor).  If I have a choice, and we generally do, I do not buy metric.  Not because I can't work with it but because I don't want to.  I've been making sawdust for over 40 years and I do not want to change.  There are more than a few people like me in North America.

But I would have no issue with a saw coming with both scales, and wouldn't even mind swapping to my preferred imperial scale.  I think a stick on scale is cheesy and I wonder about accuracy and longevity.  But a real scale I could install would be just fine.  I think putting both scales in the box would be smarter for Festool.  It seems like their prices would support the extra part. 

 

[jimbo51]

The idea of the metric scales being a bigger impediment to sales than the price reminds me of the joke about someone thinking that scented toilet paper would be the answer to bathroom odors.

Actually I am sure that Festool will probably have many more additional customers than customers lost. I want an HKC and I prefer to use batteries I already have as spares. I do not think that depth setting will be as important in cut off uses. Setting the depth well past the board thickness is easy to do in imperial or metric.

 

[Ajax]

I realize I am in the minority on this forum but I prefer Imperial measurements and it was one of the reasons I bought a DeWalt track saw and not a Festool (price was also a significant factor).  If I have a choice, and we generally do, I do not buy metric.  Not because I can't work with it but because I don't want to.  I've been making sawdust for over 40 years and I do not want to change.  There are more than a few people like me in North America.

But I would have no issue with a saw coming with both scales, and wouldn't even mind swapping to my preferred imperial scale.  I think a stick on scale is cheesy and I wonder about accuracy and longevity.  But a real scale I could install would be just fine.  I think putting both scales in the box would be smarter for Festool.  It seems like their prices would support the extra part.

I'm with you.  I do everything in imperial.  I could do metric but I choose not to.

 

[Mike B]

The parallels between this move by Festool USA and the Brexit situation are interesting; Both could be seen as capitulation to simplistic/nationalistic desires rather than continuing the pursuit of integrated excellence (in some way).

Sad to see Festool USA abandoning those brave metric journeymen who made Festool USA what it is...

Personally, the solution of offering to convert tools (for more profit) to imperial tools is so alien to me, it feels like offering to send in a tool to have it broken. Which it kinda is if you believe in the Festool system. ;-)

 

[McNally Family]

[member=24979]1951CorrectCraft[/member] - I was in the store yesterday looking at the tools. The UG cart has stick on metal tape.  You could pull it off, use some solvent to remove the adhesive and replace it with a Starrett stick-on tape cut at the right location on the scale.  Starrett offers it in both left and right reading versions, in Imperial and in combination Imperial and metric. 

I think the same tape might work on the parallel guides.

It's under $10 for each side.  Seems like Festool and Starrett should be talking.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00ELMRIZI/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&p;smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER;sc=1&
https://www.amazon.com/Starrett-SM4..._SR160,160_&psc=1&refRID=RMVJT4RSD1C85K1Q3QCB

 

[Holmz]

Well the European dress sizes are also different from the US. If you get a chance to hug someone in an Eu size 8 you just about slap yourself on the back, whereas a US size 8 is says "8" but it is different.

I am not sure it applies 100%, to woodworking tools... but most fellas seem to do fine with either, once they understand the system.

 

[SoonerFan]

This thread has mentioned the New Coke analogy a couple of times.  I for for one hope Festool Leadership read that case study in business school and like Coke reverses a decision which angered the faithful.

Imagine the joy among the loyal FOG users if Festool said:

1.  We heard you loud and clear --- metric will continue to be an option in NA
2.  We are sorry and did not realize the move would solicit this much concern
3.  In additional to all current tools being available in metric we will begin providing NA access to all tools currently available in the UK

I can dream can't I?  Seriously even If I had to special order and wait longer so Festool USA does not have to inventory both tools that would be fine with me.  Like many others I now have lots invested in metric tools, tape measures, rules and squares.  My forthcoming Incra table is also going to be metric.  With the exception of a TS75 which I want cannot justify at this time I will have what I need.  However when something new and game changing like the Domino comes along I am sure I will want metric with the warranty.

 

[Rollin22Petes]

I've got a pretty good idea instead of wasting there time on this leave the tools the way they are and get of there ass and figure out what's going on with all the burned up kapex's.

 

[slalom]

Interesting thread- I am sorry to hear about the change as the movement to SI makes sense. At least in Canada where metric is a legal measure the continuation of two systems is an unnecessary expense. As some have said, many products (plywood) are imperial in all dimensions except the most important - thickness. We really have messed this up. Seriously, my car tires are metric in width but the wheels are imperial.  This is almost as crazy as Brexit.

Speaking of which following Brexit will England go back to imperial lumber? Perhaps shillings too.