Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America

[Kev]

Without getting into which system is better, the thing that really surprises me is that there will be a horribly combined system: imperial scales, but metric lead screw (at least on the 1400) with 0.1mm detents.  Most people can work in one system or the other, but combining them seems crazy.

This raises a very important go to market issue. If your product is specific, people can make a like or don't like decision .. then they either buy it or they don't. If your product is confusing, people simply don't buy it. All of Festool's hype is about "the System". I doubt very few people here invested in an expensive Festool track saw without looking into what else was offered and how it all hung together.

The thing that really concerns me I suppose is what Festool NA perceive their average prospective customer to be in terms of intelligence and forethought ... or do they simply believe that there's a massive untapped market for people that don't care as much about tool precision and just want to buy expensive green track saws and routers that aren't covered in "confusing metric gibberish" ??

The crystal ball looks ominously cloudy on this ...

 

[GPowers]

This raises a very important go to market issue. If your product is specific, people can make a like or don't like decision .. then they either buy it or they don't. If your product is confusing, people simply don't buy it. All of Festool's hype is about "the System". I doubt very few people here invested in an expensive Festool track saw without looking into what else was offered and how it all hung together.

The system will no longer exist for current METRIC users. After all we all bought into a SYSTEM. Now that SYSTEM is being taken away and replaced with a IMPERIAL SYSTEM.

Sad day...

 

[Paul G]

The system will no longer exist for current METRIC users. After all we all bought into a SYSTEM. Now that SYSTEM is being taken away and replaced with a IMPERIAL SYSTEM.

Sad day...

Based on the announcement I'd argue there is no imperial system being put in place and the system built around metric is being (partially) obscured in NA. It's a bizarre kludge to say the least.

 

[slalom]

For my needs, the track saw should stay in metric as most veneer ply that I am able to buy is metric, only the construction grades (HK saw?) seems to be imperial.

 

[Ivan T]

During my use of the Festool Router and Festool Track Saw I do not recall ever having used the metric scale to set the depth of the final cut and relying on that to be exactly what I needed. I adjust the TS blade to extend past the bottom of the material I am cutting. For a dado I would do test cuts to get my final depth of cut.  For deeper cuts I may do a shallow cut first and then do a finish cut, but the scale is not that important to do this. When I use the Router I use the scale to make multiple plunge depths but my final depth is decided by where I have the turret stop positioned.
I think in Imperial so I put an imperial sticker on my TS 55s. I know the thickness of the material I am cutting, I add for the guide rail thickness and add some so the blade protrudes through the material. It is easier to look at an imperial scale and then add a 1/4 or 3/8 inch and do the cut.
Most of the people I know are Imperialist and would rather see an imperial scale. I think Festool has made a change we Imperialist will appreciate.
I use Senaca Parellel Gides with Imperial Measurements.
I'm just out here cutting wood and enjoying my Festools.

 

[HarveyWildes]

I ran into this in the South Park City Museum, in the school house museum building.  Yes, it's the South Park of TV fame, and so the claim to ultimate authority must be taken with a modicum of skepticism.  However, the quote reinforces the idea that metric vs. imperial can take on the aura of a religious war.

Just so that viewing this post would not be seen as a total waste of time, I'm also including a picture of the 1880's drill press that they have in the carpenter's shop  [eek].

View attachment 1

View attachment 2

 

[Michael Kellough]

Referring to the blackboard...

We want our Freedom Inches back!

Oh wait, I've got it backwards or something... [huh]

 

[Kev]

During my use of the Festool Router and Festool Track Saw I do not recall ever having used the metric scale to set the depth of the final cut and relying on that to be exactly what I needed. I adjust the TS blade to extend past the bottom of the material I am cutting. For a dado I would do test cuts to get my final depth of cut.  For deeper cuts I may do a shallow cut first and then do a finish cut, but the scale is not that important to do this. When I use the Router I use the scale to make multiple plunge depths but my final depth is decided by where I have the turret stop positioned.
I think in Imperial so I put an imperial sticker on my TS 55s. I know the thickness of the material I am cutting, I add for the guide rail thickness and add some so the blade protrudes through the material. It is easier to look at an imperial scale and then add a 1/4 or 3/8 inch and do the cut.
Most of the people I know are Imperialist and would rather see an imperial scale. I think Festool has made a change we Imperialist will appreciate.
I use Senaca Parellel Gides with Imperial Measurements.
I'm just out here cutting wood and enjoying my Festools.

[member=7784]Ivan T[/member]

This is the bit I just seriously don't get .. you don't really care about the scale, yet you'd prefer imperial. You have a lot of fellow NA FOGgers here that use the metric scale effectively in their workflow - regardless of the people you "know".

Wouldn't you "prefer" that Festool continued to service their loyal metric Festool customers as well as possible future imperial / hybrid customers? .. or do you like the idea of Festool NA screwing with North Americans that have had the audacity to use and embrace the metric system?

This is a serious question .. because I can't comprehend why even the people that want to have imperial scales on their Festool tools would want to see the people that want and currently use metric scales screwed over? Wouldn't the considerate thinking be to pressure Festool to offer both and say as much regardless of your specific preference?

 

[Holmz]

...
Wouldn't you "prefer" that Festool continued to service their loyal metric Festool customers...
...

Really once they have purchased it then that is done and dusted, and the new customer is next.

As to buying FT for quality, it is generally safe, but it can be questionable for any specific tool.
I am thinking about the plunge saws and rails, and jigsaws. It is not 100% clear that they are far and away "the best", but they quality.

Then there are people wanting tools that already exist to be peddled by Festool.
So if they have a psychologist and marketing person they may be better off than just having an engineer. Basically many just want to get a festool even if something else exists abs is just as good.

What's wrong with ...

Do you think Festool will make a better one as they always claim?

It's not GREEN!

 

[Paul G]

Really once they have purchased it then that is done and dusted, and the new customer is next.

There's also return customers to consider

 

[Kev]

...
Wouldn't you "prefer" that Festool continued to service their loyal metric Festool customers...
...

Really once they have purchased it then that is done and dusted, and the new customer is next.

As to buying FT for quality, it is generally safe, but it can be questionable for any specific tool.
I am thinking about the plunge saws and rails, and jigsaws. It is not 100% clear that they are far and away "the best", but they quality.

Then there are people wanting tools that already exist to be peddled by Festool.
So if they have a psychologist and marketing person they may be better off than just having an engineer. Basically many just want to get a festool even if something else exists abs is just as good.

What's wrong with ...

Do you think Festool will make a better one as they always claim?

It's not GREEN!

[member=40772]Holmz[/member] why would you take half of a sentence and try and confuse it so that it's completely out of context??

I'm trying to offer constructive input around a problem that a group of very loyal Festool NA customers are facing and attempting to get the wider audience to support a rally towards a better solution for all in NA and you offer ...

    Really once they have purchased it then that is done and dusted, and the new customer is next.

... no it's not! The entire point is we're talking about an integrated system as well as the continued availability of tools calibrated in the system that has been available to date.

I get that you really don't give a sausage about what could happen to Festool globally if there's a significant impact to their business from bad go to market decisions in NA ... but I DO CARE and although you obviously don't care about the FOGgers that are invested in Festool as well as the metric system, that are being treated as collateral damage by Festool NA with their new "master plan", I DO CARE ABOUT THEM.

I want Festool to make good and successful business decisions everywhere, that drive positive growth and create opportunity for them to introduce new and innovative tools that I can enjoy in the future. All the opinions I express here (both positive and negative) are contributed with the goal of helping shape better Festool offerings.

Your contributions always seem to be driving people away from Festool towards Mafell, Mirka, Lamello, etc and on this thread you seem to just want to offer nothing relevant to the actual issue being discussed [mad]

The last part of your "deep insight" statement ...

    Really once they have purchased it then that is done and dusted, and the new customer is next.

... show's an amazing lack of empathy. I didn't realise there were still people about that thought like that .. so I've learnt something!

 

[Holmz]

Easy [member=13058]Kev[/member]... I am not a businessman, manager, nor marketing type, so my guessing may be off base.

I think we agree it would be nice if they cared, but I do not know if they care or not... As it is not an NGO I would suspect that they are solely looking at the bottom line.

Since it seems to be the track saw that is first in line I am guessing that they can move a lot of units if they go imperial. Otherwise why would they? It is too much work to do unless it made sense monitarily.

Whether they care or not, I am not accusing either of us of not caring. Just suggesting that if I was in sales I would probably care mostly about how much I could sell. Since I am not in sales, maybe I am selling myself short?

 

[Kev]

Easy [member=13058]Kev[/member]... I am not a businessman, manager, nor marketing type, so my guessing may be off base.

I think we agree it would be nice if they cared, but I do not know if they care or not... As it is not an NGO I would suspect that they are solely looking at the bottom line.

Since it seems to be the track saw that is first in line I am guessing that they can move a lot of units if they go imperial. Otherwise why would they? It is too much work to do unless it made sense monitarily.

Whether they care or not, I am not accusing either of us of not caring. Just suggesting that if I was in sales I would probably care mostly about how much I could sell. Since I am not in sales, maybe I am selling myself short?

Well [member=40772]Holmz[/member] assuming your evil master plan isn't to single handedly bring about the downfall of Festool .. how do they sell the range beyond the track saw and the router and how do they dance around their other tools and accessories that have calibrations being metric?

Unlike Oz and less like Europe .. a fair percentage of Festool NA's sales are probably online. So ... a guy buys an "imperial" Festool track saw and 3 month later decides he likes the idea of the Domino. oops!

A guy walks into a retail store and really likes a track saw, so he asks to see the rest of the range ... "But why is this other stuff only metric?". oops!

... and we've done the partly invested Festool metric convert problem to death in this thread.

Festool NA either do or don't have a complete sales strategy, either way it seems they won't share it. So this change could either be a first step towards more imperial offerings or they could be making a one step panic reaction towards a market that's getting flooded with competing track saws and vastly improving routers with DC.

Something else that could be an eventuality ... take the "imperial" stumbling block out of the equation and you're still left with a high price. The track saws and routers don't benefit from variable DC, so the natural behaviour of a retailer will be not to offer a Festool dc, but to suggest a cheaper alternative. That's another oops!

 

[Holmz]

...
Well [member=40772]Holmz[/member] assuming your evil master plan isn't to single handedly bring about the downfall of Festool .. how do they sell the range beyond the track saw and the router and how do they dance around their other tools and accessories that have calibrations being metric?
...

I dunno. I have no evil master plan, and I did not encourage FT to move to imperial.
So I am not sure how I could bring down Festool.
But it would appear that many tools would need relabelling.

...
Festool NA either do or don't have a complete sales strategy, either way it seems they won't share it. So this change could either be a first step towards more imperial offerings or they could be making a one step panic reaction towards a market that's getting flooded with competing track saws and vastly improving routers with DC.
..

I think we agree ^here^.

[member=13058]Kev[/member] I would not want to play chess with you as you think by the effects projecting ahead in time.

Is the "flooding of the market" affecting their customer base?
Or...
their potential customer base?
Are they making a run to compete on a larger market?

I dunno...

 

[Jeremiah9675]

Erock texted me last night and told me about this thread. And after a lot of thought over night I do agree with him. It's a sad situation that Festool USA has put themselves in. I will not be purchasing any imperial versions of any Festool power tools. As my saw, routers, etc die off I will just look for imperial scaled alternative tools. I won't go into all the reasons why, most of the reasons are already stated on this thread. I do hope however that Festool USA gains enough new customers to balance out the ones who are leaving. Not sure on that number but you can add me to that list. After investing almost 9-10 grand into their tools they can be sure not one more dollar will come from me.

Jeremiah

 

[tiralie]

Based on the announcement I'd argue there is no imperial system being put in place and the system built around metric is being (partially) obscured in NA. It's a bizarre kludge to say the least.

Agreed. As near as I can determine from the Festool announcement the tools are metric with a imperial patch.

The system will no longer exist for current METRIC users. After all we all bought into a SYSTEM. Now that SYSTEM is being taken away and replaced with a IMPERIAL SYSTEM.

My understanding from the website is that Festool service dept will help with any metric conversions. Not exactly convenient, and needs some clarification as to how much support will be offered but to date Festool has been reasonably good about getting parts.
I doubt even Festool US knows if or when they will discontinue servicing and stocking metric parts.
Tim

 

[JCLP]

Thanks Shane for the update.
I hate it when a company forces it's Canadian users to go backwards. Imperial sizes are dead.
The top 20 Softwood/Hardwood producers in North America account for over 60% of all lumber sold in Canada and the US. In order for them to stay competitive in the gloobal market,all of their lumber is milled using metric numbers. The imperial numbers published in their specs are nominal sizes and not actual. The world outside of the US, and there is one, works with metric and will not accept imperial sizes. Example, when they publish 3/4" they actually mean 19mm. When the publish 1/4", they actually mean 6mm and so on. Nominal sizes and actual sizes are 2 different things. Plunging your track saw 1/2", plus the height of the rail, will not give you 1/2" as 1/2" plywood is actually 12mm.

Not happy about this move. But I guess American marketing professionals no better then us Canadians. I hate it when US companies tell us Canadians how to work.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Moderators Note > This post and some of the following are merged from another topic.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Erock texted me last night and told me about this thread. And after a lot of thought over night I do agree with him. It's a sad situation that Festool USA has put themselves in. I will not be purchasing any imperial versions of any Festool power tools. As my saw, routers, etc die off I will just look for imperial scaled alternative tools. I won't go into all the reasons why, most of the reasons are already stated on this thread. I do hope however that Festool USA gains enough new customers to balance out the ones who are leaving. Not sure on that number but you can add me to that list. After investing almost 9-10 grand into their tools they can be sure not one more dollar will come from me.

Jeremiah

Is this a typo? You won't buy Festool Imperial tools but you will buy Imperial tools from other manufacturers?

 

[Kev]

Erock texted me last night and told me about this thread. And after a lot of thought over night I do agree with him. It's a sad situation that Festool USA has put themselves in. I will not be purchasing any imperial versions of any Festool power tools. As my saw, routers, etc die off I will just look for imperial scaled alternative tools. I won't go into all the reasons why, most of the reasons are already stated on this thread. I do hope however that Festool USA gains enough new customers to balance out the ones who are leaving. Not sure on that number but you can add me to that list. After investing almost 9-10 grand into their tools they can be sure not one more dollar will come from me.

Jeremiah

Is this a typo? You won't buy Festool Imperial tools but you will buy Imperial tools from other manufacturers?

It's either a typo or a statement of solidarity. In either case, they're not happy with the direction!

 

[Jeremiah9675]

Yes typo, I meant Metric. Thanks for the observation.  [eek] 8)