Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America

[Paul G]

Since it will cost $75 to convert an Imperial labeled saw back to metric you should multiply the number of conversions by a hefty factor, like 10x, to judge interest.

And even more if it's only something known to active FOG members

 

[Kev]

As a bit of a counterpoint to all of this ... I'm curious now about how much Festool HO listen to their regions and broad customer base for feedback and use it to improve their tools and market strategies.

At the time of the TS55REQ development and for the subsequent TSC55 release, the demand potential for imperial scales in the US would have been well known and a modular design for the scale to make it easily interchangeable could have been incorporated (yeh - digital display would make it all a non event!!).

There's been so many people critical of the DF500's ergonomics and improving the grip setup on the Domino would have made a lot of sense to my thinking .. but nothing, just a better setup on the 700.

I won't say a lot on the subject, but KAPEX .. this is obviously not a problem that relates to US market preferences.

I've personally been critical of the handling of the "NA imperial tool role out", but the listening and the change of direction kinda tells me that Festool NA weren't attacking this from an ill intentioned perspective (maybe just a little innocent, unaware and/or narrow).

So is this arrogance, ignorance, indifference .. is there a lack of engineering capacity or R&D funding .. or is there simply no truly effective channel of communication that can get real feedback for a broad cross section of users delivered to the designers and engineers? ("the wisdom of crowds")?

Rather that treating this entire incident as a backlash anomaly, I hope Festool look into what is going wrong with their business (HO, NA, everywhere) and find out what they're missing in either understanding or learning and fix the problem - not just treat the symptom (with a range of stick on labels / bandaids).

To be clear - I'm not trying to paint a picture of Festool being a "failing organisation" .. simply that there's something that can be significantly improved.

 

[TylerC]

Since it will cost $75 to convert an Imperial labeled saw back to metric you should multiply the number of conversions by a hefty factor, like 10x, to judge interest.

And even more if it's only something known to active FOG members

Once again, I was throwing out a hypothetical. It's not a hard number or process. I'm just talking about a possible way to gauge general interest -- not a specific way to accurately predict sales numbers.

As to it being "only something known to active FOG members", this decision was made five days ago with a three-day weekend in between. Just because you're the first to know of the update doesn't mean that you'll be the only ones to know. Additionally, we're not going to start heavily promoting the retrofitting options until they're closer to being ready.

 

[ear3]

There's a recent case I can think of where complaints seem to have made a difference.  The TS55REQ at first had no positive stop at 0 degrees at the front, meaning the saw could dip slightly towards the -1 degree setting, even when the stop at the back was engaged.  There were a lot of complaints on the FOG about this, with some people forced to invent creative ways of ensuring repeatable plumb cuts (like making their own set/grub screw, or shimming the base).  This was the source of my first and (so far) only negative experience with Festool service -- I remember being really surprised after I called them on the phone and raised the issue, and found that they didn't even acknowledge that it might be a problem.

But then quietly a little over a year ago Festool announced that all new TS55REQs going forward would have a lever/button in the front to ensure the saw stopped at 0 degrees in the front.

Now, it's unclear whether it was FOG specific static or complaints from the broader community of Festool users that prompted the change, but for me it is evidence that negative feedback can have an effect.

As a bit of a counterpoint to all of this ... I'm curious now about how much Festool HO listen to their regions and broad customer base for feedback and use it to improve their tools and market strategies.

At the time of the TS55REQ development and for the subsequent TSC55 release, the demand potential for imperial scales in the US would have been well known and a modular design for the scale to make it easily interchangeable could have been incorporated (yeh - digital display would make it all a non event!!).

There's been so many people critical of the DF500's ergonomics and improving the grip setup on the Domino would have made a lot of sense to my thinking .. but nothing, just a better setup on the 700.

I won't say a lot on the subject, but KAPEX .. this is obviously not a problem that relates to US market preferences.

I've personally been critical of the handling of the "NA imperial tool role out", but the listening and the change of direction kinda tells me that Festool NA weren't attacking this from an ill intentioned perspective (maybe just a little innocent, unaware and/or narrow).

So is this arrogance, ignorance, indifference .. is there a lack of engineering capacity or R&D funding .. or is there simply no truly effective channel of communication that can get real feedback for a broad cross section of users delivered to the designers and engineers? ("the wisdom of crowds")?

Rather that treating this entire incident as a backlash anomaly, I hope Festool look into what is going wrong with their business (HO, NA, everywhere) and find out what they're missing in either understanding or learning and fix the problem - not just treat the symptom (with a range of stick on labels / bandaids).

To be clear - I'm not trying to paint a picture of Festool being a "failing organisation" .. simply that there's something that can be significantly improved.

 

[grbmds]

Don't want to get involved in this discussion for the long-term, but it's possible that Festool has had significant feedback from building, remodeling, cabinet, and furniture making professionals that prompted them to make this change. People like me who don't do woodworking related work for a living, while we buy these tools, probably do not make up the largest segment of Festool's current buyers or potential buyers. If the professionals are the people who provide feedback to Festool in some other way besides the FOG, then that group would certainly have a big influence on Festool's design and marketing. Festool sells a lot of tools which are extremely cool, like the Conturo, the LR32 system, MFS (now discontinued), and the Dominos; even the Kapex. While I have purchased a Domino and think it's the best tool ever, most woodworkers I know wouldn't even think of buying one because of price. So the appeal for tools like this are the professional group and I would bet that this group in the U.S. has provided very negative feedback about the tools being in metric. For me personally, I don't care whether the OF1400 or TS55 are metric or imperial because I rarely use the scales for anything. I know what the standard measurements are  converted to metric and the others I use some sort of gauge external to the router to set depth. I might care a little more if the Domino were being converted because I do use those scales and have gotten used to them being metric. (However, I would expect the Domino 500 to last me the rest of my life since I'm not a professional using it everyday, so my only worry would be if they decided to convert the 700XL to imperial. I might just have to buy it in metric before that happened.)

 

[clark_fork]

Don't want to get involved in this discussion for the long-term, but it's possible that Festool has had significant feedback from building, remodeling, cabinet, and furniture making professionals that prompted them to make this change. People like me who don't do woodworking related work for a living, while we buy these tools, probably do not make up the largest segment of Festool's current buyers or potential buyers. If the professionals are the people who provide feedback to Festool in some other way besides the FOG, then that group would certainly have a big influence on Festool's design and marketing. Festool sells a lot of tools which are extremely cool, like the Conturo, the LR32 system, MFS (now discontinued), and the Dominos; even the Kapex. While I have purchased a Domino and think it's the best tool ever, most woodworkers I know wouldn't even think of buying one because of price. So the appeal for tools like this are the professional group and I would bet that this group in the U.S. has provided very negative feedback about the tools being in metric. For me personally, I don't care whether the OF1400 or TS55 are metric or imperial because I rarely use the scales for anything. I know what the standard measurements are  converted to metric and the others I use some sort of gauge external to the router to set depth. I might care a little more if the Domino were being converted because I do use those scales and have gotten used to them being metric. (However, I would expect the Domino 500 to last me the rest of my life since I'm not a professional using it everyday, so my only worry would be if they decided to convert the 700XL to imperial. I might just have to buy it in metric before that happened.)

One area we absolutely have no way to even guess about is the effect of patents. Now others have moved into the tools listed for the Imperial changeover. This whole strategy may have everything to do with protecting patents. The Domino does not seem so threatened up at this point. I, like you, expect to keep my Domino and don't anticipate improvements so radical that I would need to replace mine.

That said, the Domino has not been copied and knock-offs are not now available at Harbor Freight. It is only a matter of time and then Festool will likely react with some significant changes that might include a change-over of the grip, shielding the reciprocating machinery and for heavens sake.... adding a light to the center guide similar to lights found on the drills. We can only guess but I can imagine the fun Fog will have with an Imperial Domino with mm tenons.

Lastly, While I was heartened to see the two versions of the parallel guides were sensibly retained, the math of the router adjustments escapes me.  We will likely soon see a Fogger offer an excel spread sheet to help us with that issue.  Anyone... Anyone..?

 

[grbmds]

[member=49013]clark_fork[/member] Just curious, how much do you use the scales on the router? I have moved away from that even with other routers I have (Triton, PC, and Dewalt). I mainly now use either a depth guide I have or something that is exactly the thickness I need to get to set the depth. It's more exact. The scales on any router aren't perfect anyway.

 

[clark_fork]

[attachimg=1]

[member=49013]clark_fork[/member] Just curious, how much do you use the scales on the router? I have moved away from that even with other routers I have (Triton, PC, and Dewalt). I mainly now use either a depth guide I have or something that is exactly the thickness I need to get to set the depth. It's more exact. The scales on any router aren't perfect anyway.

Perhaps I am over-thinking the process. I use an electronic mm/inch measure and set the depth. I am making this which requires a slot and an inch wide inset set 1/4 inch into the base.  As you suggest, I could just use a 1/4 inch flat stock and set the depth.

Overall, the preciseness has some appeal. My dad never carried a tape measure and neither did the boat carpenters at Graves Boat Yard In Marblehead, Massachusetts where I worked in the summer.. They went to the saw with a stick in their hand and hand planed the curve when fitting planks. Maybe we do make too much of measures... My Dad would saw by eye and a stick and say, " I cut this off twice and it is still too short." I was expected to laugh.

 

[Michael Kellough]

[member=49013]clark_fork[/member] Just curious, how much do you use the scales on the router? I have moved away from that even with other routers I have (Triton, PC, and Dewalt). I mainly now use either a depth guide I have or something that is exactly the thickness I need to get to set the depth. It's more exact. The scales on any router aren't perfect anyway.

That's true, but having ~25 marks per inch is much better than having just 16.

 

[grbmds]

[member=49013]clark_fork[/member] Nice story. I like it. I found that it's fine to measure and use electronic depth gauges (which I also have) to get close but, if I need something to fit a specific groove, dado, or thickness, I just use that opening or match that depth without measuring. The only time I feel safe using my electronic depth gauge is on my Incra table with the Jessem lift because I can control it in increments of 1/64" (even 1/128th) and I know that, when I've zeroed it out I'm getting exactly what I measure. Otherwise, I try not to measure but use something else to gauge - a drill bit diameter, a Domino, some bars I bought from Woodcraft. Even so, it does seem like Festool is kind of forgetting about how they got where they are in the US right now. I personally doubt I'll need anymore Festool power tools except possibly a Domino 700 if I get into much larger furniture or outdoor projects. So, I'm set, I think.

 

[RobWoodCutter]

When I bought my first Festool, I was annoyed by the metric scales, but after "collecting" 19 tools and 3 vacs, I can honestly say I just don't use them.

I always use some other form of measuring device to set up the tool.

My Track saws have label maker stickers that I have added that show what settings to adjust the depth to for the various thicknesses of plywood/osb/pb with and without the track being used so I don't cut too deep into the foam board.

I use an electronic measurer to set router bit depths when free handing and on the CMS.

So if the replacement scale become available, I really don't need them, but may get them anyway, just so I can feel that American pride of independence and being unique in the world..... [wink]

As a resident of Yorktown and working less than a mile from Colonial Williamsburg the stirring pot of independence and freedom....  [big grin] .................................

 

[jimbo51]

Tyler

I assume that the HK saws for North America will have imperial scales as standard.

Since a large number of these will be pre-ordered, will customers/dealers have the options of having them delivered as metric for $75 extra?

 

[Bob Marino]

Whatever one thinks of the change, the encouraging news is that the FOG has clout and Festool is listening and re-evaluating their position.

 

[Holmz]

When I bought my first Festool, I was annoyed by the metric scales, but after "collecting" 19 tools and 3 vacs, I can honestly say I just don't use them.

I always use some other form of measuring device to set up the tool.

My Track saws have label maker stickers that I have added that show what settings to adjust the depth to for the various thicknesses of plywood/osb/pb with and without the track being used so I don't cut too deep into the foam board.

I use an electronic measurer to set router bit depths when free handing and on the CMS.

So if the replacement scale become available, I really don't need them, but may get them anyway, just so I can feel that American pride of independence and being unique in the world..... [wink]

As a resident of Yorktown and working less than a mile from Colonial Williamsburg the stirring pot of independence and freedom....  [big grin] .................................

Your humour is appreciated by me. Just like I like my martini.

...
Since a large number of these will be pre-ordered, will customers/dealers have the options of having them delivered as metric for $75 extra?

The idea of spending an extra $75 for the standard saw is also pretty funny, in a dry way.

 

[adugas]

As proud a Festool owner for the last 3 years I find this news irritating. It was 4 years ago I was introduced to Festool and took me some time to get over the fact that it was metric based but after my first purchase of the track saw and accessories the cut quality sold me on the system and thus be began the steep learning curve of metric wood working. Although I’m Canadian and metric system is nothing new however metric wood working was. From that time 4 years ago I have educated myself on The Festool metric system and have been able to grow my hobby into a stable side business that has allowed me to acquire many of the Festool line of products. This switch to imperial system is the wrong way to go in my opinion as the metric system is more accurate . why would the Festool brand want to ruin the quality and precision its known for.

 

[Holmz]

I'll concede the dust collection as being pioneered, but "Festool metric system"?
Most European tools are probably using the metric system, and they only brought it to the US... Before now giving up on US.

 

[Kev]

I think it borders on comical when you consider how innocently a lot of organisations try to enter and generate returns from the US market.

North America has assimilated (and to some degree, forcibly acquired) peoples and cultures from across the widest parts of the globe for several of the last centuries. Before your first transaction you have to deal with the fact that the people expect to pay less, get more, have more options and get it in their favourite colour, flavour, size ... with 100% refund if they were stupid for buying it in the beginning.

It's a big gamble.

 

[TylerC]

Tyler

I assume that the HK saws for North America will have imperial scales as standard.

Since a large number of these will be pre-ordered, will customers/dealers have the options of having them delivered as metric for $75 extra?

Yes, the HK will be in imperial. The imperial-to-metric conversion will not be an option for this one.

 

[Kodi Crescent]

[member=11301]RVHernandez[/member] it would seem that the current loyal Festool NA customer base is not a major factor in their planning. Obviously speculation on my part, but the points you've made would make anyone in the middle of investing in Festool potential collateral damage of their changes.

If our current customers didn't matter, I wouldn't be responding to this thread.

Tyler, your quote above really strikes me in a negative way.  That's something I'd expect Shane to say (and he's not worthy of worship, despite how others feel.) I hope you serve as a more positive representative of Festool.

 

[erock]

[member=11301]RVHernandez[/member] it would seem that the current loyal Festool NA customer base is not a major factor in their planning. Obviously speculation on my part, but the points you've made would make anyone in the middle of investing in Festool potential collateral damage of their changes.

If our current customers didn't matter, I wouldn't be responding to this thread.

Tyler, your quote above really strikes me in a negative way.  That's something I'd expect Shane to say (and he's not worthy of worship, despite how others feel.) I hope you serve as a more positive representative of Festool.

[scratch chin]  I can't recall Shane being negative on here.

Eric