Festool is (partially) moving to imperial in North America

[Bob Marino]

[member=11301]RVHernandez[/member] it would seem that the current loyal Festool NA customer base is not a major factor in their planning. Obviously speculation on my part, but the points you've made would make anyone in the middle of investing in Festool potential collateral damage of their changes.

If our current customers didn't matter, I wouldn't be responding to this thread.

Tyler, your quote above really strikes me in a negative way.  That's something I'd expect Shane to say (and he's not worthy of worship, despite how others feel.) I hope you serve as a more positive representative of Festool.

[scratch chin]  I can't recall Shane being negative on here.

Eric

Shane doesn't need me to defend him, but being who I am, will just come out and say it.  I have known him a looooooong time - when he was at McFeeleys as their man in charge of their website and when he was Festool's man in charge of all things Internet- including the FOG and  more recently in a similar capacity at Toolnut. So twice as a competitor and once as a helpful resource. As a competitor he was fierce and was very responsible for making McFeelys one of the best, if not thee best Festool websites out there at that time. As FOG moderator as well as Festool Internet resource for we dealers, he worked tirelessly - we often exchanged emails at midnight and beyond if I had questions.
I have never seen him react negatively or in any way other than in a professional manner on the FOG. I'm not sure people worship him, maybe some do, but most do like him or at the very least respect him for all that he's done - whatever his capacity.
Again, we are both now (once again) competitors vying for customers and will fight for that, but literally at the end of the day, will lift a glass or two and share some good food over a some sort of enjoyable conversation. Nah, no hero worship, just plain old fashioned respect - gotten the hard way - he's earned it.

 

[leakyroof]

[member=11301]RVHernandez[/member] it would seem that the current loyal Festool NA customer base is not a major factor in their planning. Obviously speculation on my part, but the points you've made would make anyone in the middle of investing in Festool potential collateral damage of their changes.

If our current customers didn't matter, I wouldn't be responding to this thread.

Tyler, your quote above really strikes me in a negative way.  That's something I'd expect Shane to say (and he's not worthy of worship, despite how others feel.) I hope you serve as a more positive representative of Festool.

. Meh, maybe phrase it as 'all our customers matter' ..... I feel we've beaten this topic to death here on the FOG.  If it doesn't work out, they'll go back to the way things were.... With People asking for Imperial Scales......, which has been a recurring theme here on FOG for years.
And now, it's a messy reality with the partial change over . We'll all get through this.

 

[Paul G]

[member=11301]RVHernandez[/member] it would seem that the current loyal Festool NA customer base is not a major factor in their planning. Obviously speculation on my part, but the points you've made would make anyone in the middle of investing in Festool potential collateral damage of their changes.

If our current customers didn't matter, I wouldn't be responding to this thread.

Tyler, your quote above really strikes me in a negative way.  That's something I'd expect Shane to say (and he's not worthy of worship, despite how others feel.) I hope you serve as a more positive representative of Festool.

say what? Or to borrow from an old sitcom

 

[Stephen B]

[size=13pt]Whilst I can not comment on Shane as one of his Dealer customers,  he has earned my utmost respect and admiration.

This stems from his time with Festool USA, a time when the FOG received almost instant Festool commentary and replies to queries. Not waiting for days, weeks or never as is the case now. At last count I have numerous unanswered @xx to Festool employees in FOG replies. Shane would have answered at least some of these, even though I obviously am not a direct customer of Festool US or UK.

Looking at my PM list since 2014 I note at least 6 from Shane ranging from technical queries, specific posts to arranging Australian entries and swag for video contests. Two of these were since Shane left Festool USA.

Yes Shane has my respect.

But obviously he has upset at least one FOG member. No one is perfect! I know this because more than once he has misspelled my name!  [big grin]  [smile]

[member=48572]Shane Holland[/member] [member=5]Bob Marino[/member] [member=8352]erock[/member]

 

[TylerC]

[member=11301]RVHernandez[/member] it would seem that the current loyal Festool NA customer base is not a major factor in their planning. Obviously speculation on my part, but the points you've made would make anyone in the middle of investing in Festool potential collateral damage of their changes.

If our current customers didn't matter, I wouldn't be responding to this thread.

Tyler, your quote above really strikes me in a negative way.  That's something I'd expect Shane to say (and he's not worthy of worship, despite how others feel.) I hope you serve as a more positive representative of Festool.

I'm sorry that my comment struck you as negative. To be honest, I don't see it that way, but we're all allowed to interpret these things differently.

Without getting into the imperial discussion again, this was not a fun thread — for anyone. I was trying my best to respond to (mostly very fair and valid) criticism for several days. Although I am only a small part of Festool, it was difficult for me to hear “Festool doesn’t care about us” comments when I just spent a week trying to help. (I’m a “Festool rep”, but I’m also a human.)

Maybe I let the criticism get to me. (As the Festool rep here, I struggle to not take some of the criticism of Festool personally. Especially criticism about our motives or such.) Maybe I lost my patience. Maybe I was having a rough morning. If anyone viewed my comment as dismissive or negative, I'm sorry about that.

In regard to Shane, he certainly doesn't need me to defend him, but I will anyway. I don't think that it's much of a stretch to say that the FOG might not exist today if it wasn't for Shane. Earlier this week he emailed me to volunteer his help on something (non-FOG related) that was under no obligation to help with. He's not "worthy of worship", but he's an incredibly helpful guy and a crucial member of this community.

That said, Shane and I — and the mods, other dealers, etc. are human. I think it benefits the FOG for us to act like people instead of customer service robots. The downside of responding like humans is that we're -- wait for it -- human. We’re not working from scripts or running our replies past approval boards. This means that we might not always handle things perfectly. So I apologize in advance for the next stupid thing that I post on here. Onward and upward.

 

[mattmass]

I'm sorry that my comment struck you as negative. To be honest, I don't see it that way, but we're all allowed to interpret these things differently.

Without getting into the imperial discussion again, this was not a fun thread — for anyone. I was trying my best to respond to (mostly very fair and valid) criticism for several days. Although I am only a small part of Festool, it was difficult for me to hear “Festool doesn’t care about us” comments when I just spent a week trying to help. (I’m a “Festool rep”, but I’m also a human.)

Maybe I let the criticism get to me. (As the Festool rep here, I struggle to not take some of the criticism of Festool personally. Especially criticism about our motives or such.) Maybe I lost my patience. Maybe I was having a rough morning. If anyone viewed my comment as dismissive or negative, I'm sorry about that.

In regard to Shane, he certainly doesn't need me to defend him, but I will anyway. I don't think that it's much of a stretch to say that the FOG might not exist today if it wasn't for Shane. Earlier this week he emailed me to volunteer his help on something (non-FOG related) that was under no obligation to help with. He's not "worthy of worship", but he's an incredibly helpful guy and a crucial member of this community.

That said, Shane and I — and the mods, other dealers, etc. are human. I think it benefits the FOG for us to act like people instead of customer service robots. The downside of responding like humans is that we're -- wait for it -- human. We’re not working from scripts or running our replies past approval boards. This means that we might not always handle things perfectly. So I apologize in advance for the next stupid thing that I post on here. Onward and upward.

I just wanted to chime in to express empathy for this situation. While I'm new here, in my own corner of the world, I'm in exactly the same situation that [member=57769]TylerC[/member] is. I regularly am involved with high-touch customer iteration via an online forum, and other means. It is sometimes a challenge, and I regularly lose sleep over it. I find it extremely hard to *not* take criticism of the company I work for personally. And that's even when I agree with it. I sincerely appreciate you sharing your thoughts here. I know how difficult this kind of thing can be.

Continuing with the lovefest, I'll also want to add that relative to other forums, or the internet in general, I've found the FOG to be uncommonly friendly and polite. *pat on the back*

 

[Kodi Crescent]

There were two comments, too long to quote.  They should be immediately above this one.

Tyler, thank you for clarifying that, and for that apology.  I understand that doing this can sap a lot of patience, and that you're human.  I appreciate the clarification on those in this position from one of the following commenters.

In regards to Shane, yes, he has been quite responsive and professional on the blog.  The genesis of my comment occurred long, long, long ago, and is not germane to this thread.  It was not my intent to hijack the thread, and I apologize for bringing it up.

 

[Harry1561]

Perhaps instead of festool making their tools imperial for the North American market, they could get the Americans to change to the metric system. I'm sure a company with the reputation of Festool carries some clout!!!!!! [wink]

 

[Stephen B]

Perhaps instead of festool making their tools imperial for the North American market, they could get the Americans to change to the metric system. I'm sure a company with the reputation of Festool carries some clout!!!!!! [wink]

[size=13pt]
Oh, [member=6936]Harry1561[/member] , Harry, Harry, where have you been!?  Metrics and Imperial systems have been 'thrashed'  around the FOG infinitum for years. The surprise for me was not so much that Festool US went to Imperial, but that they received so much criticism here from a significant number of the FOG's  Nth American members.

_______________

[welcome]

Just in case it has not been done; a big welcome to the FOG.

 

[Harry1561]

Sorry, Untidy Shop Haven't had time to read too much of the history!!
Thanks for the welcome [big grin]

 

[Michael Kellough]

The most serious criticism of Festool "moving to imperial in NA" is that it is a superficial effort. Marks are changed but the actual mechanism remains and functions metrically.

 

[Kodi Crescent]

The most serious criticism of Festool "moving to imperial in NA" is that it is a superficial effort. Marks are changed but the actual mechanism remains and functions metrically.

I can understand Festool's move.  If I were starting over, I'd want all imperial tools, and at time of purchase I probably wouldn't be thinking about exact depths of cut.  I don't know that it's reasonable to expect precision cutting depths when working with wood.  Machining metal is a different story.  And because of this lack of precision, I don't think I'd be concerned about the scale/depth differences if I was not aware of it.  (Due to the cost of the tool, I may be slightly disappointed when this difference was brought to my attention. )

My complaint is the conversion cost.  I think it should be "complimentary" for previous customers.

 

[Holmz]

Festool could make a calculator... And make it a promotional item.

 

[sigmatango]

Festool could make a calculator... And make it a promotional item.

I can save you and them time and money... 25.4 mm = 1 inch...  [tongue]

As a Canadian, we are stuck between our American and European cousins.
As a cabinetmaker, having to do on the fly conversions can be annoying, but its just part of life.

As a human, I can laugh at my own personal silliness and the silliness of the world around me. After all, an inch is based (supposedly) on the thickness of a monarch's thumb and metric is just as relatively silly in origin. Let just admit that an alien from another planet might find these incongruities hilarious...
[big grin] [wink]

 

[Holmz]

Festool could make a calculator... And make it a promotional item.

I can save you and them time and money... 25.4 mm = 1 inch...  [tongue]

As a Canadian, we are stuck between our American and European cousins.
As a cabinetmaker, having to do on the fly conversions can be annoying, but its just part of life.

As a human, I can laugh at my own personal silliness and the silliness of the world around me. After all, an inch is based (supposedly) on the thickness of a monarch's thumb and metric is just as relatively silly in origin. Let just admit that an alien from another planet might find these incongruities hilarious...
[big grin] [wink]

If I combine the rule of thumb with Festool green, then I am reminded that the Mrs asked for some planter boxes a month ago.

 

[Xoncention]

Festool could make a calculator... And make it a promotional item.

I can save you and them time and money... 25.4 mm = 1 inch...  [tongue]

As a Canadian, we are stuck between our American and European cousins.
As a cabinetmaker, having to do on the fly conversions can be annoying, but its just part of life.

As a human, I can laugh at my own personal silliness and the silliness of the world around me. After all, an inch is based (supposedly) on the thickness of a monarch's thumb and metric is just as relatively silly in origin. Let just admit that an alien from another planet might find these incongruities hilarious...
[big grin] [wink]

If I combine the rule of thumb with Festool green, then I am reminded that the Mrs asked for some planter boxes a month ago.

I grew up with the imperial system back in the 60's.  Then we were forced to change over to the metric system.  The patterns of numbers in the imperial system is good for your brain as a mental exercise, while the metric system is better in more ways.  Just about anyone can count to ten, and that is the basis of the Metric system.  [dead horse]

 

[tekbench]

I live and do the majority of my work in the US. Two or three times a year I'm overseas doing a project.
Metric system is the best way to go for me. And I don't use it when I'm back in the US. Mostly old habits die hard. My new 55 came with a sticker that has imperial markings on it. A decal I could stick OVER the metric units already affixed to my saw. I left it off. I use the measure points as more of a marking system. Doesn't matter what the number is, just that "the last cut was too shallow. Move it to the other side of the marker line". It is nice to have a solid marking system on guides though. I do use my Bosch table saw fence marker quite a bit. And it's darn accurate. within 1/32 on most stuff.
anything super precise gets measured and cut using the actual stock as a real world measuring stick. Or a known good square or precise setup tool.
I'd like the option at order time, frankly. I'll stick with the metric.
Kelly

 

[Cheese]

Well for those out there that didn't have the opportunity to  [dead horse]  on the imperial vs metric saw issue, here's another shot at it.  [big grin]

I'm in the midst of a bathroom remodel and have been cutting all sorts of different materials in different thicknesses. Think foam insulation, 2x materials, plywood, cement board...everything is cut on a portable table with a foam backer pad and I try to adjust the saw to cut into the foam backer as little as possible.

I have been using my imperial version HKC (a metric version is unavailable in the US) to cut everything, the saw is a real treat to use on both FSK & FS rails. I noticed yesterday that even though the saw is graduated in 1/16" increments, at some depths it could be adjusted to 1/32"  [thumbs up], but at other depths it could only be adjusted to slightly over or slightly under 1/16".  [sad]

And then it occurred to me...count the number of detent positions between 0" and 1". For this to be a true imperial adjusting saw there should be either 16 or 32 detents.......wait for it............how about 25 positions instead.  [eek]

It goes like this: 0-1/4"= 6 detents, 1/4-1/2" = 7 detents, 1/2-3/4" = 6 detents and 3/4-1" = 6 detents. So even this most heralded new imperial only product, produced exclusively for the US market, is actually just a rebadged, gelded metric tool with an imperial scale.  [crying]

I bring this situation up because if I had not been a member of the FOG and previously read about all of this half-baked imperial/metric nonsense, I'd have taken my new saw back to Betterley and asked for a replacement HKC because there was obviously something wrong with a new imperial saw that will not adjust in 1/16" increments.  [sad]

 

[Paul G]

Somewhere in this long thread sometime ago, I believe it was Tyler C who stated this would be the case. That the imperial tools are in no way retooled for imperial increments but just an imperial sticker while the tool increments would still adjust in metric. The routers, TS and HK saws will all be like this.

Yup, it was previously discussed. This is one of the reasons some advocate for dual scales wherever possible. Those who transitioned to metric can happily continue on, and the imperial users could at least know the actual setting of the metric innards as opposed to merely the imperial approximation. So the end result now is a high end tool that can't do a precise setting to the provided scale. Even as an imperial user myself I find this situation to be somewhat ridiculous. At least with the metric scale I knew what the setting actually was even if somewhat inconvenient to convert, now no one knows the actual setting.

I deal with this maddening situation in the prepress industry, where the 256 shades of grey in 8 bit color channels are commonly referred to by the scale of 0-100%. The result is that between 0-1% there are 3 steps, 1-2% had 2 steps, and so on. In certain situations we need to know the exact 8 bit value but most software doesn't allow it and we're stuck with the approximation.

 

[Cheese]

Somewhere in this long thread sometime ago, I believe it was Tyler C who stated this would be the case. That the imperial tools are in no way retooled for imperial increments but just an imperial sticker while the tool increments would still adjust in metric. The routers, TS and HK saws will all be like this.

Whoops, I missed that one, I thought that because this new US imperial program was rolled out to be such a big deal and it was rather heralded as a "You spoke and we listened" type of announcement, that Festool was taking the US craftsman seriously and actually spending money to produce an all new imperial product. If this is all the newly released imperial tools will be, this could have happened 10 years ago! What's the difference between half baked ten years ago or half baked today, the result is the same.

I just received the new Festool Fall 2016 catalogue yesterday, the cover which reads "innovation.unmatched." and noticed that on page 30, under the title of "New Scales Imperial measurements for 2016" was this quote, "In order to facilitate the working operations of the craftsman, we felt it necessary to improve the user experience".  [eek]  [eek]