Festool noise ratings

[NuggyBuggy]

Festool cites noise levels of 62-72 dB(A) for the CT-36.  Does anyone (Shane?) know if these levels are specified at a specific distance ?

Oneida rates my cyclone (V-3000) at 75dB, at 10'.  But when looking at other noise levels, I see no mention of specific distances - which would seem to be key.

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

I believe that dbA is typically measured at one meter. I'm pretty sure that's the case with our measurements and believe it to be an industry standard.

 

[Rustbucket]

This is why noise ratings still are not a great way to compare noise levels.  There are no standards, and some noises are harder on the ears than others.  High pitch sounds, for example, can be much more annoying than lower pitch.

 

[mouppe]

...and duration as well.

 

[grbmds]

The question for me is really whether it's OK to not use ear protection for the short duration that is generally the case with use of the TS55 connected to a CT48. For a long board, I would understand the need, but cutting for very short periods, like 10-15 seconds is what I was wondering about. I normally use ear protection, but these are very short periods with noise levels that aren't supposed to be harmful.

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

You should always wear ear and eye protection when operating power tools. Refer to your operators manual for specific information.

I would not advise using the TS for even brief periods without hearing protection.

 

[Paul G]

You should always wear ear and eye protection when operating power tools. Refer to your operators manual for specific information.

I would not advise using the TS for even brief periods without hearing protection.

Said like a Festool employee  [big grin]

 

[MrToolJunkie]

I always wear hearing and eye protection. To me it is just not worth the risk -- I only have one set of eyes and ears and I do not want to cause damage to either so I take what precautions I can. 

Scot

 

[ccarrolladams]

I am not a Festool employee.

However, I am a responsible employer with several separate businesses. There are worker safety issues in every business.

Compared to my custom cabinet business the potential for loss-time accidents is greater at my metal fabrication firm, largely because we work on very large and heavy products.

This does not mean building cabinets is free from work accident potential. Falls and lifting accidents can be avoided. My shop has two different kinds of fork lift trucks as well as vacuum hoists to handle individual sheets. Operating all of those require training and refresher courses.

Since I hired my first part-time employee in 1950 I have always work both hearing and eye protection. I like to set a good example. I also require all visitors and employees to wear both hearing and eye protection. My rule is simple: Wearing hearing and eye protection is mandatory. Violation of this policy can and has resulted in termination.

 

[AlexThePalex]

The question for me is really whether it's OK to not use ear protection for the short duration that is generally the case with use of the TS55 connected to a CT48. For a long board, I would understand the need, but cutting for very short periods, like 10-15 seconds is what I was wondering about. I normally use ear protection, but these are very short periods with noise levels that aren't supposed to be harmful.

+1 on using hearing protection at all times. I don't know where you get the idea that these noise levels aren't harmful, because they surely are. Almost every power tool out there makes a noise well above the harmful level. Doesn't matter how long you use the tool. Every second you use it does a tiny bit of damage.

I myself use some cheap but very light mufflers from 3M. I put them on almost every time I use a power tool, even for the shortest of durations. I often forget I'm wearing them, as I often find out they're still on my head 10 minutes after I laid down the tool.

BTW, I don't wear hearing protection because I'm overly concerned about damage, I wear it because I severely dislike the noise. My senses tell me it's bad all by themselves.

 

 

[Daver]

The question for me is really whether it's OK to not use ear protection for the short duration that is generally the case with use of the TS55 connected to a CT48... I normally use ear protection, but these are very short periods with noise levels that aren't supposed to be harmful.

To quote Vince Vaughn from Wedding Crashers,
"It's very difficult trying to read the situation. And all the while you're just really wondering are we gonna get hopped up enough to make some bad decisions? Perhaps play a little game called "just the tip". Just for a second, just to see how it feels."

I'm a strong believer in ear protection, all the time. I carry a pair of corded earplugs (in a case) in my pocket and have multiples in redundant locations relative to work/tools in case I lose those. I live in new york city and am the guy you'll see on the subway platform with his hands over his ears as the express trains go by. If I'm in for a wait, I'll just break out the plugs.
One of my carpentry mentors has very real hearing loss and has always commended me on my practices. I knew enough to protect my eyes and ears but it was he who explained to me that hearing (like some of our other senses) is measured in logarithmic terms.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logarithmic_scale
Likewise, hearing loss is measured in logarithmically
http://www.nchearingloss.org/db.htm?fromncshhh
"Because the scale is a logarithmic scale, a 50 dB loss means you've lost a lot more than half of your hearing."

+1 to ccarrolladams on his shop policies.

I would really recommend hearing protection in conjunction with your TS55.

Best,
Dave

PS I wanted to include the links not to try to prove a point to you, but as a reference to anyone else who might happen along this thread and have their own questions or want quantifiable data.

 

[cliffp]

I acquired very bad tinnitus through listening to music through headphones nine years ago. It took me years to get used to it. I ended up getting a bit blase a year ago after I bought a TS55R and OF1400 because I thought they were very quiet compared to other tools. As a result of this I didn't wear hearing protection and just using the tools for a total of 15 minutes was enough to make my tinnitus a lot worse - it has been plagueing me ever since. Of course since I already had tinnitus I am probably more susceptible to getting worse tinnitus but I simply don't think it is worth the risk. Whether you end up with hearing loss or tinnitus, its all bad news.

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

You should always wear ear and eye protection when operating power tools. Refer to your operators manual for specific information.

I would not advise using the TS for even brief periods without hearing protection.

Said like a Festool employee  [big grin]

Sure, part of it is a liability thing, but I genuinely don't want anyone to suffer an injury. I've seen plenty of photos of power tool injuries and it's not something I would want to have on my conscience that someone read something here on the forum that resulted in an injury. The problem with hearing damage is that it can be subtle over time and not nearly as obvious and a gash in your hand.

Shane

 

[Sparktrician]

I would not advise using the TS for even brief periods without hearing protection.

I would add any router to that statement.  

From the standpoint of someone that is now 100% deaf in one ear, I want to retain any remaining hearing for the rest of my days.  Many years ago I worked in a shipboard generator compartment with three huge GM diesels running 24/7 plus three smaller diesels on varying cycles.  The Navy in its finite wisdom refused to provide hearing protection to those of us that worked in that environment.  Some guys I knew were shipped out with permanent hearing loss due to the level of noise.  After getting off a four-hour watch, we often were functionally deaf for up to 12 hours before normal hearing returned.  The bottom line is that I buy and use the best hearing protection I can find.  I carry ear plugs in my vehicles and briefcase as a matter of course.  My range box carries plugs and muffs, and both are worn when I'm using rifles and pistols, especially under a shed roof at the range.  Even with all that, my .44 Magnum just wears me out from the noise it makes.  Power tools mandate the use of protection for me, especially routers, saws and the planer.  

 

[Paul G]

You should always wear ear and eye protection when operating power tools. Refer to your operators manual for specific information.

I would not advise using the TS for even brief periods without hearing protection.

Said like a Festool employee  [big grin]

Sure, part of it is a liability thing, but I genuinely don't want anyone to suffer an injury. I've seen plenty of photos of power tool injuries and it's not something I would want to have on my conscience that someone read something here on the forum that resulted in an injury. The problem with hearing damage is that it can be subtle over time and not nearly as obvious and a gash in your hand.

Shane

I understand and agree. Using my TS75 I use ear plugs, using my cordless drill I rarely do. I'm currently doing a lot of tile cutting and ear protection is a must at the wet saw. Using a dremel would depend on it's application, polishing is much quieter than grinding, the latter I use ear plugs for any extended session. Shooting anchoring concrete nails is quick but way too loud to not use ear plugs. General workplace rules can cover all situations but they don't answer the question what is safe. When it comes to noise it's all about decibels and duration. When in doubt use ear protection, but a decibel meter and some knowledge on safe levels of exposure will actually answer the question. I went through this exercise using a decibel meter iphone app, not perfectly accurate but better than nothing and useful for comparing environments. The most ironic finding was the situation that prompted this testing, the band at my church was crazy loud, and using the decibel app they were hitting up to 100 decibels and generally sitting at 85. That church was more dangerous to my hearing than some of my power tools. My electronic shooting muffs that kick in at about 82 decibels would have protected me from most of the worship service (religious jokes aside lol).

 

[gkaiseril]

There is a lot more noise pollution than just shop tools. Just walking down the street one could easily be subjected to dangerous noise levels from traffic noise and if one rides trains through tunnels or underground tubes in big cities like London, Paris, New York, Boston, or Chicago the noise level of the electric trains within those tunnels is well over 10db. I see people wearing hearing protection in the transit tunnels and even on the sidewalk on a daily basis. This is because individual items might below the allowed level but in total the level exceeds the guide line for 1 item.

10 feet for the US and 1 meter for the EU sounds about right and are close enough for comparisons.

An operator of a saw, router, planner, etc will be standing closer than 1 meter or 10 feet to the device so he/she will be much louder. Noise like light varies by the square of the distance. Also a home woodworker might have less noise in their shop than a commercial manufacturer but the size, shape and construction of the home shop could cause reflection of the emitted noise and result in a work space just as noisy.

If one searches for information about noise emission, one will find how complex this is.

If one looks at how people lose their hearing, it is from a lifetime of small abuses and large abuses.

I grew up when shop safety was not stressed as much so I have a lot of bad habits to break. Fortunately I wear glasses all of the time but I have a hard time with earmuffs and push sticks. So I have a lot of bad habits to break. I now keep foam ear plugs with each tool and wrap around safety glasses with tools that spary anything or could explode like car jumper cables. I also am trying to keep face maks available with the tools.

The bottom line is you only get one pair of eyes, one pair of ears, one pair of lungs, and ten fingers. You have to protect them or lose them. The replacements are not nearly as good as the originals.

 

[RKA]

@grbmds - hearing loss and protection is a little different from eye protection.  For most of us, the effects aren't always obvious or necessarily noticed, they take place over a lifetime as previously mentioned.  You may be close to retirement before you really start to notice the effects.  Duration, intensity and frequency (both types) all play a part and it's cummulative.  And even though it's true that in our day to day we may be subjected to worse, it's still a good idea to use the ear protection as much as you possibly can, even if the noise doesn't "bother" you.

I'm just a few years older than tinker (rumor has it he's 39 now) and never grew up using hearing protection for most day to day things (outdoor power tools).  Even in shop class back in high school it was optional and mostly only used when you fired up something "loud" (oddly enough eye protection was not optional).  Of course in hindsight, we can say that was foolish, but we can't turn back the clock.  I've noticed the effects quite a number or years ago and it's not getting any better.  I'm now wishing I had done things differently, and in spite of that, old habits are still hard to change.  I keep 1 set of over-the-ear hearing protection out in the garage, need to get another for the basement, and a whole bunch of in ear disposable thingys all over the place so convenience is never the issue.  They aren't as good, but they are much better than nothing.  I need to get a set for inside the house as well...but there are additional considerations at play. 

The best analogy I can come up with is oral hygiene.  You brush and floss multiple times a day, and if you weren't so disciplined at a young age, it probably wouldn't matter all that much.  But 50 years later you'll be thankful if you did.  Every little bit will help.

 

[NuggyBuggy]

As the OP, let me say that I am totally onboard with wearing hearing protection as much as possible.  I put on my muffs every time I make a cut. When I use a hammer drill, I notice my ears hurting after driving a couple of screws.

The question really came up after I saw one of Paul-Marcel's videos where he mentioned the noise levels from his cyclone were comparable to those from his Festool vac.  If true, I'd jump at buying that cyclone for my own home -because my Festool is acceptably quiet for use in my home, but my Oneida definitely not.

He kindly retested and did note the cyclone was louder, but the fact he even initially thought they might be comparable  got me thinking about noise levels and how comparable they really were. 

I believe that dbA is typically measured at one meter. I'm pretty sure that's the case with our measurements and believe it to be an industry standard.

Thanks Shane -you could be right that the industry adopts that distance as a standard. It's too bad the standard doesn't also include explicitly specifying the distance -because an unethical company could cite a number made at a different distance and not be lying.

Because as far as I can tell, the definition of dbA doesn't specify such a distance.  I had looked at a number of articles and didn't find any mention of such a distance.  For instance, one article says:

10 feet for the US and 1 meter for the EU sounds about right and are close enough for comparisons.

1 meter is a little more than 3'... At 10' (~ 3* 1m), measured dB should be 12dB less (with each doubling dB should drop by 6dB).

 

[fdengel]

The stated ratings are technically meaningless.

First of all, dB is a relative measurement: it measures volume (or other measurable level) compared to something else.  The measurement is sometimes weighted based on the specific frequencies of sound involved: these are the A or C ratings (typically); the A rating is more appropriate for musical content, the C rating is more appropriate for mechanical noise (such as power tools) - the "A" suggests a suboptimal measurement for power tool use, though its use has evidently been mandated now, probably to help further confuse people's understanding of tool safety...

Even if a more appropriate weighting were used, it is still not clear what this measurement is relative to.  There is a "standard" measurement basis often referred to as SPL, but as this is not explicitly stated, one could only guess; 72dB can be louder than 92dB if they are measured relative to different things.

The distance is also important, as was pointed out in the original post.

Making various assumptions, we might guess the rating to be:

62-72dB SPL at 1 meter, A weighted

but is that what it actually is?  And that is only relevant for comparison purposes if another company uses the same exact standards - and even then it might not be, as the frequency distribution of the sound could be different, resulting in skewed results because of the weighting.

I don't put much stock in the usefulness of dB ratings provided by ANY of the tool companies.  Even companies producing pro audio gear often use misleading numbers or provide incomplete information and it can be very misleading.