Festool Precisio CS 70 Review

[wrightwoodwork]

Yes I get that the fence face is not square to the table. As long as the saw blade is 90 degrees to the table and the fence is 90 degrees to the table and you hold the work piece flat on the table and up against the fence you should get a square cut. The fence not being square off the table should not effect the cut unless you hold the work piece tight against the fence and lift it off the table. Without seeing what or how you're holding the work piece its a little hard to work out

 

[MichaelW2014]

i'm not 100% sure what you are suggesting. are you saying i can just tilt the blade hmm. but tilt it to fill the incorrect angle of the fence, which is whatever constitutes a .25mm gap, possible?

 

[wrightwoodwork]

First of all forget about the fence is the blade 90 degrees to the table when set at 90. Is there any chance of posting some pictures of how you're holding the work piece to the table and fence or maybe a vid. Then maybe some of the the other members can point you in the right direction. My guess is you're using the fence face as your reference surface instead of the the table face of the saw and as it's not 100% correct its causing errors in your cut.  Is the table of the saw flat and not in twist. 

 

[MichaelW2014]

First of all forget about the fence is the blade 90 degrees to the table when set at 90. Is there any chance of posting some pictures of how you're holding the work piece to the table and fence or maybe a vid. Then maybe some of the the other members can point you in the right direction. My guess is you're using the fence face as your reference surface instead of the the table face of the saw and as it's not 100% correct its causing errors in your cut.  Is the table of the saw flat and not in twist.

Yes, I can get the blade at 90 degrees to the table. I have a digital angle gauge that says the table is near flat at .1mm or so off from flat in some places. so i would say it is flat.

to determine if the fence is square or not to the table i use the table as my reference. i zero my digital angle gauge on the table. then i press it against the fence. the fence is screwy--i get a reading of "90.2" or "90.3".

i also use my shinwa carpenter's square to get a reading on the fence as it relates to the table. i rest the square on the table and butt it up against the fence, as you can see in the photo in my first post on this thread. next i use my feeler gauges to determine the size of the space between the bottom corner of the square the fence. i get a feeler gauge in the gap that is .25mm thick.

so, i am using the table as the reference. but after reading what you wrote i realize that it is not absolutely necessary that the fence be square with the table so long as it is evenly the same distance from the blade. or so i think is true.

i feel i need to get some high quality squares to double check my perception of this fence alignment. i don't trust my shinwa carpenters square.

 

[wrightwoodwork]

Yep that's it

 

[MichaelW2014]

hmmm, good point. thank you for expanding my mind. i am slowly getting my head around this. but, i still feel this situation is unresolved. because the fance is angled with an overhang type of angle, force could be restricting the movement of the wood when i pass it in a rip motion.

anyhow, i'm going to see how it works in a more controlled situation. thanks again for your help.

 

[Nigel]

Basically it doesn't matter that the fence is not perfectly square to the table as long as it is nice and square to the blade, your work piece should rest flat on the table. The table or sliding table is the support not the fence which is the guide. I would also suggest forgetting feeler gauges and just use a good square or digital bevel to accurately calibrate you're fence.

 

[MichaelW2014]

Basically it doesn't matter that the fence is not perfectly square to the table as long as it is nice and square to the blade, your work piece should rest flat on the table. The table or sliding table is the support not the fence which is the guide. I would also suggest forgetting feeler gauges and just use a good square or digital bevel to accurately calibrate you're fence.

i see, yes, the fence is not the support. but, the fence is angled as an overhang. so i am concerned that any pressure to keep the wood piece against fence will result in it being pushed into a wedge. this could restrict smoothness of travel down the table, in a rip action. so, i still believe it needs to be corrected. but, i definitely learned more about the geometry of working on a table saw. i learned more about my measuring tools too. i don't feel comfortable using the digital angle gauge. i need to watch some more videos on how to use them. i wonder how accurate it is. i think i would rather have a digital bevel as you suggest and a high quality square.

 

[aas]

I have had my Elu site saw nearly 25 years now, looks pretty tatty now, and the fence has always lent in towards the blade at the top. I made a zero clearance MDF insert for the table, and of course for a rip saw, the most important two things are that the fence is parallel to the blade, and the blade is 90 degrees to the table - tape measure for the first and a square for the second. You don't need a fancy square - a CD case, anything 'engineered' should be 90 degrees - if the worst comes to it, fold a sheet of paper in half, then accurately in half again and you have 90 degrees. The thing is, the saw cuts beautifully clean and square!

Most tools are mass produced and they need a little adjusting or modifying to get right, or to get how you want them. Don't be nervous about taking a grinder to it if it needs it - you'll save yourself the stress of it all, and you'll end up being proud that you sorted it out!

Learn to modify things, make jigs, make templates, make table inserts, fences etc., and listen to the comments (esp wrightwoodwork - he knows his tools!)... and if all else fails, buy the Mafell - it's on my shopping list too!

 

[MichaelW2014]

I have had my Elu site saw nearly 25 years now, looks pretty tatty now, and the fence has always lent in towards the blade at the top. I made a zero clearance MDF insert for the table, and of course for a rip saw, the most important two things are that the fence is parallel to the blade, and the blade is 90 degrees to the table - tape measure for the first and a square for the second. You don't need a fancy square - a CD case, anything 'engineered' should be 90 degrees - if the worst comes to it, fold a sheet of paper in half, then accurately in half again and you have 90 degrees. The thing is, the saw cuts beautifully clean and square!

Most tools are mass produced and they need a little adjusting or modifying to get right, or to get how you want them. Don't be nervous about taking a grinder to it if it needs it - you'll save yourself the stress of it all, and you'll end up being proud that you sorted it out!

Learn to modify things, make jigs, make templates, make table inserts, fences etc., and listen to the comments (esp wrightwoodwork - he knows his tools!)... and if all else fails, buy the Mafell - it's on my shopping list too!

i hear you. thanks for the advise. i will do some more checks soon. btw ELU machines look great, just saw them for the first time.
§

 

[AlexThePalex]

That was a sad day in Tool Town when Elu was absorbed by DeWalt.

 

[Frank-Jan]

That was a sad day in Tool Town when Elu was absorbed by DeWalt.

I actually have fond memories of that time... I got an elu cordless set with an 18 V hammerdrill and a reciprocating saw for 10,000.= Belgian francs (the reciprocating saw by itself was 18000 BEF at the time in yellow livery instead of the cooler dark grey and blue. [wink]

Only other elu tools I remember using was a soso palm sander and a flipsaw that was already quite worn and annoying (the elektra beckum we had at the same time was my favourite) (both got replaced by my first cs70)

 

[Frank-Jan]

My first CS70 also had a fence that wasn't perpendicular to the table anymore, but in my case it slanted away from the blade; I was planning on sending it into service because it was having a few other problems (it was 8 years old, but it got stolen from a jobsite before I got to it).
I noticed it when I had to make a lot of thin rips, and was referencing of the fence instead of the table; later I worked around it by using wider material if I needed thin rips (If the stock is alreay thin; you can't reference of the table, because of the opening where the blade travels for pull-cuts).

I can see that in your case it is more annoying, even when setting the width. (if it slants away, you can just measure at the table, if it slants towards the blade, you'd have to measure at the thickness of your stock  (I don't remember by how much mine was off, but I'm guessing more than 0.25mm)

Does it make a difference if you use a different V-groove? (front or side)

The slot in the table is NOT a miterslot, but for clamping.

The accuracy has always been good enough for my needs, (I'm just a carpenter, not a cabinetmaker) I never had to calibrate the miterguage on my first saw. (which I had to do on my kapex after 6 months of use).

I also have a Nobex, I remember I really didn't like the accuracy when I needed to trim just a bit extra off an already cut miter. [wink]

If the fence bends when making ripcuts, you're putting too much pressure towards the fence (more than needed).  (I also have the ripfence that clamps at both sides, but rarely use it, because it's a hassle to switch from ripping to crosscutting)

I do feel that the build quality of my second CS70 is not up to par with the old one, I had to fix the leveling foot to keep it from turning inside the leg and thus lowering the saw; and at startup the blade shivers a bit (the cuts are still accurate, but if I install one of those green anti-splinterblocks, it will get damaged. And the free accessory, the transporting wheels were in a damaged box and one of them turns really hard (but hey, you can't look a given horse in the mouth)

(I wanted to send it back the week after I got it, because the festool rep would be at the dealer I got the saw from; but meanwhile my father managed to cut into the fence  [eek] and he  also tried to bevel the saw with a splinterblock installed I think, because there are teethmarks on the part you swivel up to change the blade; so the fact that the shivering was there from the factory became a lot less plausible)

As for the blade change, it takes a few more steps, but it looks a lot more comfortable than on a mafell erica. (Plenty of room, from above the table, and you can use a regular spanner on the arbornut aswell, in case it has gotten too stuck)

 

[aas]

That was a sad day in Tool Town when Elu was absorbed by DeWalt.

I still use my MOF177E as my daily router - awesome machine. What puts me off retiring is it (as I would like a bit more power) is I think I will be disappointed with the replacement.
I'm still use many of my Elu tools, purchased at the beginning of the '90s - and they were seriously expensive back then - much more than Festool equivalents now!.. none of them have ever broken down!

 

[sancho57]

Hmmm interesting post Frank-Jan,

I try to set my fence up so the rear of the fence is farther away from the blade then the front of the fence not much maybe .003 to stop kick back.

But that was using a American style Fence that extends the length of the table and not the euro style which only goes to the rear of the blade.

 

[wrightwoodwork]

The idea of the fence going only to the back of the blade is, if you're ripping natural timbers when you cut them tension can be released un the timbers after the saw blade and if the fence is fixed after the blade solidly and the blade is also attached fixed point there is a chance of binding or a kick back. After the material has past the blade it is actually better to have no pinch points which can cause a danger to the user. The one thing you never really want to do when using and saw is trap the blade. So if you have a badly twisted or bowed piece of timber depending on which way you should place it up and towards the fence

 

[pingvinlakrits]

Michael: I am surprised at your troubles with the CS70. I had one with all accessories for a couple of years and once set up it was very accurate and solid. Are you running the LA rip fence? It is a must have (I think) and it was only lack of space in my smaller work shop that caused me to sell the CS70. The projects I ran on that saw always came out great regardless of size timber or panel. Set up took a few hours but once set up all the add ons could be removed and reinserted with no loss of accuracy.

I always liked the Erica 70/85 but the weight puts me off a little - as it did with the CS70.

We have a large format saw at the larger shop so I didn't really need the CS70 (nor the Erika) and with all the bells and whistles it was too heavy for on site work. I replaced it with a Bosch XC10 which did a good job too - but I no longer have it, I don't haul that size saw around anymore. If I had a medium sized shop and could not fit a larger saw I would still be very happy with the CS70, and in a pinch, the XC10.

 

[MichaelW2014]

yes, very annoying that is slants toward the blade. as you say, it makes measuring difficult. i have to correct the problem if i want to do joinery or make bars for picture frames. etc. i have started to work on it. i just have to add height to the bottom of the fence itself.
i can do this with tape. it sounds shitty, and it is, but i don't see a better way to do it. it's pathetic really to have to do this one a $2,500 machine. very upsetting.

It doesn't make a difference if i use a different v groove. Yes, the t track is for clamping. Clamps work well.
The nobex has really crappy plastic parts. But I don't use these parts. It is good where it counts most, on cutting precise miters. For me, I seem to be getting dead on miter cuts, very clean, no tear out. But the best manual miter saw, is, apparently, the langdon falls miter saw. You can find them on ebay. Lie Nielsen is considering making one. They have been talking about making one for two years. I will probably buy one eventually. I don't think machines, in my purchasing range, can cut miters as well as a high quality manual miter saw. (I would not buy a kapex unless I were a carpenter.)

Yes, it is possible i was putting too much pressure on the fence when ripping. I am just talking about the miter fence, not the LA rip fence add on, which I do not own.

I never received any free transporting wheels.  [unsure]

"but meanwhile my father managed to cut into the fence"  -haha that's a bummer. funny though.

the blade change does suck but I got used to it. i need a set of wrenches....

 

[sancho57]

I'm used to the euro style fence now. It's what I use on my CMS. I still have the rear of the fence about  mil out from the front.

Haven't had any issues with it.

 

[MichaelW2014]

The idea of the fence going only to the back of the blade is, if you're ripping natural timbers when you cut them tension can be released un the timbers after the saw blade and if the fence is fixed after the blade solidly and the blade is also attached fixed point there is a chance of binding or a kick back. After the material has past the blade it is actually better to have no pinch points which can cause a danger to the user. The one thing you never really want to do when using and saw is trap the blade. So if you have a badly twisted or bowed piece of timber depending on which way you should place it up and towards the fence

hmmm, i didn't know this. thank you!