Festool price rant

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backhoebb

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This is getting out of hand. the price increases need to slow or you risk alienating a serious majority of your customer base. at 600 or so in 2015, my mft3 set was an expensive investment in quality, German engineering. Now at 720, I would not again purchase one, a common view among my circle of construction and cabinetmaking friends. The carvex, at 390 dollars, I'm sorry but that is just too much for a jigsaw. I have a carvex, its great, I wouldn't trade it for anything(I already own a p1cc) but I would not purchase it again at that price. festool has to make money, but with added cost has to come added value. otherwise the consumer base will move towards different brands of power tools. the tools are great and the dust collection is top notch, but they have to be within the reasonable sphere of affordability unless you want to lose your professional customer base. I write this as constructive criticism, quality surley comes at a price, but the price has to reflect the product.
regards

robert Lockwood

lockwood construction LLC
 
I feel for you guys! And I have to say that Festool US' annual price hikes have always seemed extreme! Insultingly so.
We don't suffer nearly as much in Europe. And since a few years back dealers have been able to offer serious discounts as a permanent situation. With out this I wouldn't own nearly as many green tools as I do. Before the change I owned 3 Festools, now I've almost lost count. If I was in the US, Festool would get a lot less business from me.
 
I’m not involved with setting prices on any product any more as I am retired, but I do know there are many factors that affect prices. One of the big price drivers is the cost of litigation insurance. The US legal system allows anyone to sue for anything. Companies have to have lawyers and legal insurance and those are expensive. Another factor is currency exchange rates... US dollar vs Euro. Staff salaries rise. Health insurance for employees cost more every year. It’s complex. And, Festool has to generate a profit even as their costs rise.

Thus, their prices go up.
 
Festool may have various reasons for relentless price increases in the USA but the Euro:Dollar exchange rate isn't one of them!  Here is a 10 year trend chart...looks like this factor would have netted us a 30% price reduction in 2014-15 and 40% since 2010.  Instead the price of the Kapex is up about 20% since 2010!  Of course there have been many improvements to the Kapex since 2010...nope same saw except the newer ones do come equipped with that "improved" motor armature.  The relentless annual Festool price increases are all about supporting Festool's luxury goods tool model, where the high price is a feature, not a problem!
 

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kevinculle said:
Festool may have various reasons for relentless price increases in the USA but the Euro:Dollar exchange rate isn't one of them!  Here is a 10 year trend chart...looks like this factor would have netted us a 30% price reduction in 2014-15 and 40% since 2010.  Instead the price of the Kapex is up about 20% since 2010!  Of course there have been many improvements to the Kapex since 2010...nope same saw except the newer ones do come equipped with that "improved" motor armature.  The relentless annual Festool price increases are all about supporting Festool's luxury goods tool model, where the high price is a feature, not a problem!

It hurts more in Canada.  You can find the odd dealer selling at better prices but It’s ridiculous to see annual price increases on tools.  It’s pretty stupid. 
 
I have this image in my mind of a Festool marketing meeting where the chief marketeer stands up and says, "Well it's happened again.  We've raised our prices and we sold more stuff again this year than last.  I see a pattern developing here.  From now on, raising prices will be part of our brand mystique - let's see how much we can get away with next year!"

I'd love to see Festool let the market price their stuff.  I'm still amazed that the U.S. allows them to dictate prices to retailers.  Given that, however, it's all about the market.  If people quit buying their stuff, prices will come down.  If Milwaukee, Makita, and DeWalt continue to innovate at a faster pace, incorporating elements of Festool design, prices will come down.  Complaining about the price of tools is like complaining about of price of housing or trucks or... anything else.  For example, it looks to me like the price of cars is up about 20% since 2010, but with a fair amount of innovation in drive chain to improve gas mileage, and in nanny electronics that are a mixed bag.  Companies will do what the market can bear.

I wonder if Festool as a company has formed spending habits commensurate with their prices.  If so, it will be very painful for them if prices have to be lowered.  I have an image in my mind of where I would start to cut costs if I were them, and it's pretty much the same image that I started the post with.  But as long as more people keep buying their tools at constantly rising prices, it ain't gonna happen.

Added - I found this link on car prices.  Looks like less than 10% on average since 2010 - actually a decrease relative to inflation.  But the car that I'm looking at saw a 20% increase. Dang!
http://wgntv.com/2016/04/25/the-ave...49-how-much-was-a-car-the-year-you-were-born/

 
[member=66154]Steven Owen[/member]
Steven Owen said:
It hurts more in Canada.  You can find the odd dealer selling at better prices but It’s ridiculous to see annual price increases on tools.  It’s pretty stupid.

but but.. you only pay 5% sales tax where I am it's 12-15%  [eek]

I agree, it is ridiculous and it is with everything. Personally I haven't get an increase in the last 12 years  [blink]
 
The prices will never go down (although I think they did on batteries one time). I have never heard of any German-made product experiencing a price reduction. The company is probably more concerned about taking care of their employees and not milking every last bit of usefulness out of them at the lowest possible price while working them to death. I'll take the price increases knowing that someone is at least benefitting.
 
HarveyWildes said:
I'd love to see Festool let the market price their stuff.

I think the only big problem with letting the "market" decide on price is that long term, the "market" becomes online retailers or big box stores that are more than happy to only make a dollar or two on top of the cost and make their profits on quantity. Profits of only a few dollars per tool does not pay for good support or training. I think you'd be saying goodbye to a lot of the Festool Roadshows, Festool Sedge, and the good support that we see in terms of a long warranty and quick turnaround time on malfunctioning tools.

If I'm not mistaken, the US prices have generally cheaper than the rest of the world too. A quick search finds a TS 55 at ~585 euro in Germany, which would be roughly $700 in the US. Seems like we are just finally reaching the point where we have the same price on tools with the most recent price update (TS 55 now sells for $690), so hopefully that means it has leveled out.
 
A longtime buy/user of Festool products - When I’ve commented on this subject -
I’ve been chastised on this forum - And even been told to “just sell” my Festool tools.
I was an relatively “early adapter”/purchaser of Festool products.
Like many of you all - I love my Festool products. I’m not selling anything.
I’m just increasingly disappointed in the direction the brand is going - And I’m hesitant about buying anything else “Festool”, given what I read/see happening.
Apparently... I’m not alone.
Many of Festool’s “forever loyal and faithful” - Are also increasingly concerned.
The “drumbeat” of discontent continues... Price increases... Tool problems... Service issues. And it’s getting “louder” - And more frequent.

On FEB 25th, Eric/ERock/ThePoplarShop - A longtime ardent Festool advocate - And producer of multiple terrific Festool “How To” videos - Said it best in his latest post:
“I don’t believe in the company anymore”.  https://youtu.be/x6KhUhfcvgA

Recently, I saw a posting by Brice Burrell, a “forever” vocal Festool apostle -
Another well known, respected - And frequent FOG poster/video producer -
Opting to look at alternatives to Festool products.
See/Search: TS 55 Reliability/Quality Problem - Reply #13  May 5, 2018
“We will be getting the Bosch version of the MT55 here in the states in the fall.  It doesn't have all the features of the Mafell but it comes in at the same price of the TS55.  I'll into replacing my 12 year old TS55 then.”

Reminds one of an old business axiom:
“Ignore your customers - They’ll go away.”
 
Apparently, Tim Cook doesn’t agree with you.
At $1,000 apiece, the iPhone X isn’t selling as well as Apple thought it would.
Disappointed with sales being LESS than expected - Apple’s new direction:
“Apple's Three New iPhones for 2018: Bigger, Faster, Cheaper”
http://fortune.com/2018/02/26/apple-new-iphone-release/
Thx for making my point for me. Companies that “listen” to their customers - Adapt, grow, and prosper.
 
Prices go up, cost increase. The cost of a new truck is this year is more than was last year. Ya cant expect to buy a rolls royce for the price if a yugo.

There are a lot of a companys makeing tools that have dust collection, guide rails etc that are a lot cheaper then festool. You dont need to buy festools.

I saw that harbor freight has some inexpensive tools .

Putting thing in perspective :

When was the last time you were in Germany or Europe?

I returned from living there for 4 years 11 mos ago.

There you have the EU regulations both safety and manufacturing which increases, various Licensing fees, You have export and import taxes, you have general cost increases of employees. Energy cost increases not to mentio Fuel cost increases, labor cost increases from where FT buys their parts from. Not to mention a Value Added Tax (VAT). I think Germany is 16% on everything bought or sold.
Then shipping cost increase (fuel for the ships, wages, taxes, dock fees) etc. Dont forget that VAT applies.

Then when the products reach the USA cost Doc fees Import fees, Shipping fees Fuel cost wages, Insurance increases even rent and advertisment cost for the B&M stores etc etc.

A good example of what Im talking about, what is the cost of a dominos pizza delivered to your door in the USA? Its about $7 bucks plus tip right?

In the UK that same domino pizza (depending on conversion) will cost you roughly $20 a pizza not including tip or 15 GBP .

Ive paid over $20 bucks in the UK (after the conversion) for a burger. UK has a 20% VAT.

Cost in Europe are different than here and go up all the time.

The price of everything goes up.

The cost of Birch shop plywood has increased something like $20 a sheet from 4 years ago and Calif added a enviromental tax on each sheet which adds a buck or so per sheet .

1/2 Baltic Birch was when I left somethnig like $20 for a 5'X5" Sheet its running about $36 now.

Heck.,  I can drive to Las Vegas Nevada pay something like $10 bucks a sheet less for 19mm Shop Birch a sheet and its in the middle of the desert and everything comes into the Port of LA to be shipped there. Added cost prolly state taxes (Calif is the worst)......

Have look at at building materials look at the cost increases. Go to the Home Depot and compare the price of a tube of caulking or gallon of paint to what it cost even last year?

I just paid $86 bucks for a gallon of WB finish that used to pay $30 bucks for a few years back.

You have to look at the big picture.

When was the last time you went to go grocery shopping? When was the last time you bought a pair of Levis?

Licensing fees (registration cost) for vehicles.

Things go up. When I was a kid I paid $5 to get into Disneyland its over $100 just for a ticket to get in now.
I use to pay a $1.25 to get into a movies for a Sat matinee with 2 movies and a cartoon and news reel.

When was the last time you went to a movie?

 
jobsworth said:
Prices go up, cost increase. The cost of a new truck is this year is more than was last year. Ya cant expect to buy a rolls royce for the price if a yugo.

There are a lot of a companys makeing tools that have dust collection, guide rails etc that are a lot cheaper then festool. You dont need to buy festools.

I saw that harbor freight has some inexpensive tools

I also don't like price increases, but I do like Festool products, and will therefore continue to buy them. 

Recently, I thinned out and sold a few items for almost exactly what I paid for them two years ago (try that with DeWalt).  I just woke up one morning and realized I had purchased a few "wants", and not "needs" along the journey.  Naturally, I used the money from the sales to purchase more Festools!
   
 
[member=60452]McNally Family[/member]

I hear ya bro, There are some new(er) festools I woud love to have but Im priced out right now. The Conturo, and the Vacsys are a couple of them. So I make due with out them. I still edge and using the wifes old iron.  I have to build a kitchen for my BIL but Im not going out to get a contruro unless he pays for it which though I havent asked him yet He prolly won't. So Ill just get real cozy with the wife old iron.

Even Festool end user training used to be $200 then it went up to $250 and now $350 or so.

The cabinet class combined with the doors and drawers is $700 buck now.

Thats life right. Things go up, life goes on
 
I am only loyal to my money, not to brands. I don't care how Festool or any other brands increase their prices as my purchase decision is based on what I think is fair. I can practically afford any woodworking tools or machines -- Festool or other premium brands, but I don't have most of them because I don't have any needs or wants for them. For those that I do want/need, I buy them regardless of how much their prices have gone up over the years -- or will continue to go up, as long as the prices are acceptable to me. Many people say the Kapex is overpriced; I would agree so if and when my Kapex's motor burns out. For now, it is the best saw (not counting the SawStop) I have ever used.

As a businessperson, I raise my fees periodically (with no fixed patterns) and my clients will decide if they can accept the increases. If they don't think so, I will lose some of my clients -- and my earnings, but I am not going to offer my service below the competitive rates that I think I deserve. Of course, there is always someone out there who is willing to do more for less, but I am not one of them. I suppose Festool pricing policy works similarly.
 
FWIW I think that this issue needs to be viewed from within a much larger context.

I view the premium price of these tools in two ways, neither of which is necessarily complimentary. The first has to do with the principle of "what it actually costs to produce something". In this case, we're talking about tools in general and premium tools in particular. However, the same principle applies whether we're talking about the production of tools or food or anything else.

When manufacturers/brands opt to externalize the bulk of their costs - by choosing to produce their goods in distant and despotic lands that lack both the rule of law and adequate labor & environmental protections (all of which combine to shove many of the costs of production onto the backs of exploited workers and the environment and, increasingly, even onto the rest of society - by way of funding corporate welfare, producing mass migrations of climate/economic refugees and/or increasing workers' reliance on various forms of public assistance, etc.), rather than manufacture in evolved democracies (like Germany or, to a lesser extent, the United States), the result will be a) the end retail price of the applicable widget will almost always be less then a comparable widget produced in a place where the water, air and soil are relatively clean and where workers enjoy such "luxuries" as strong organized labor, ample time-off and affordable state-sponsored healthcare, childcare, education, elder-care, etc. and b) the quality of the applicable widget will often (though not always) suffer.

When I purchase a Festool product I am, whether I understand it or not, supporting an entire system which prioritizes product quality and the rights of workers & the environment (and, to some extent, the rights of consumers) over the detriments associated with the "race to the bottom" (the latter as practiced by the bulk of tool manufacturers). IOW I choose to support mothers and children, specifically, and people, in general, having universal access to world-class education, world-class healthcare (if not also clean air, water and soil) and the attendant award-winning quality of life that these "luxuries" produce. I support these things for everyone on the planet but I don't buy the argument that by purchasing sweatshop-produced goods I can indirectly improve people's lives in the Majority World. To meaningfully do that, we would have to lift the yoke of U.S. and European imperialism and in its place institute a system of economic reparations to make-up for the last half-millennium of abuse and exploitation. 

Just like the cost of small-scale, organically-produced food more closely mirrors the actual cost of what it takes to produce food (by utilizing a system that, relatively speaking - and relative to conventional ag - doesn't pollute the environment, pays its workers a fair wage and which works with nature instead of against it), the cost of a high-quality tool produced in Germany more closely mirrors the actual cost of what it takes to produce tools without (and, again, this is all relative) trashing the environment, without exploiting workers and without asking/expecting the larger society to shoulder many of the costs of production (direct government subsidies for things like transportation, energy, etc., aside).

The second way in which I view the now regular price increases - and this could be seen as an even more global (if not also cynical) view - is through the lens of human overpopulation (as manifested by resource depletion and climate change and all of the attendant massive-scale consequences). Given what countries like Germany (which, after all, is still at its heart an industrial nation) are facing as a result of the weakening of the North Atlantic Current (a.k.a "North Atlantic Drift" and "North Atlantic Sea Movement") - and the very real potential for it to shut down altogether - and the realities of doing business on a planet that is rapidly approaching many of the associated finite limits, there is an increasing incentive, particularly among the wealthiest among us, to take steps, no matter how utterly silly (like amassing and concentrating monetary wealth), to "prepare" for the looming collapse of society. Given the reality of our situation, therefore, I wouldn't put it past Tooltechnic's owners to increasingly want to engage in the business of transitioning as much wealth as possible from "the people" to "the 1%". Now, I am not privy to TTS Tooltechnic System AG & Company's books so I can't know for certain what the breakeven point is and how close to it (or far beyond it) the current pricing scheme is - IOW what profit margins are, relative to what retail prices currently are, relative to what consumers are willing to pay, relative to what it actually costs to participate in adequately funding an evolved welfare state. However, given that more and more people are waking up to the very real and present threats that we (and future generations) face, it wouldn't be unreasonable to postulate that the people at the very top of Tooltechnic may a) see the writing on the wall and b) may, as a result, be seeking to maximize their wealth as a (no matter how pointless) hedge against near-future troubles.

For me, acquiescing to Festool's pricing comes down to my desire to do less harm. Which is why, in the context of building projects with the aid of electric tools, I prioritize buying pre-owned Festools (over new), using locally sourced and/or reclaimed materials as often as I can, avoiding toxic chemicals/ingredients and why I do everything I can to buy non-sweatshop-produced tools (and, in the other parts of my life, locally and/or ethically produced consumer goods). That said, I am not a Luddite and I choose to participate, no matter how far in the margins, in the larger economy - I just try to do so as ethically as possible. I could do much more but this is where I am currently at. Plus, I have no illusions that any of my actions are producing any truly meaningful effects, beyond those that exist in my own head (which help me get out of bed in the morning). Our fate, after all, has already been written.

So, as a toast, here's to futile efforts and even more to futile ideas. And, to the FOG, which serves as a wonderful distraction from the chaos taking place outside. Cheers. 
 
If I find that a price is too high for a tool, I don't buy it.There are many high quality tools on the market these days, including many vacs with HEPA filters and auto start features, sanders, routers, track saws, even MFT type work tables. Many of those tools are less expensive and, for many of us, would serve our needs. For those tools that are unique to Festool, like the Dominos, I guess I'd say a premium price is justified.

I have a number of Festool tools, including the MFT, a vac, routers, the Dominos, track saw, VacSys, and a couple of extra guide rails. While I did not necessarily like paying the high prices, I don't regret buying them. Regret for buying them takes the fun and satisfaction out of using them. When I use one of my Festools, I get satisfaction out of how well it operates, how vibration free and dust free the sanders are, how well the vac sucks up dust and chips, how easy it is to set up my OF1400, how the VacSys facilitates sanding, Dominoing, and routing, how square my cuts are on the MFT/Miter gauge setup; just to name a few.

If I don't want to pay the price, I don't buy the tool. My opinion is that if the price is too high, don't buy the tool. That's the best and quickest way I know to show any company that their tools aren't worth it. (Just me, of course. I'm sure others see things differently.)
 
Joe Felchlin said:
Recently, I saw a posting by Brice Burrell, a “forever” vocal Festool apostle -

I buy tools that offer the best value for my money.  That was Festool a decade ago.  Now, there is a lot more competition from the other brands and they are beating Festool in innovation and value more and more everyday. 
 
The value proposition should always be part of the tool buying process unless cost is not a concern but in the US keep in mind that when Festool began selling here they offered the tools at prices far below what the rest of the world paid. Don’t know how prices compare across counties these days since the EU has forbidden price fixing which is still in effect in the US.
 
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