Festool price rant

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Joe Felchlin said:
Apparently, Tim Cook doesn’t agree with you.
At $1,000 apiece, the iPhone X isn’t selling as well as Apple thought it would.
Disappointed with sales being LESS than expected - Apple’s new direction:
“Apple's Three New iPhones for 2018: Bigger, Faster, Cheaper”
http://fortune.com/2018/02/26/apple-new-iphone-release/
Thx for making my point for me. Companies that “listen” to their customers - Adapt, grow, and prosper.

Apparently you overlooked what Apple reported at their last Earnings Report (last week I believe) which was that the iPhone X was the best selling phone every week of the quarter being reported on. This Fortune Magazine writer, like all but a few analysts, knows absolutely nothing and are just spewing off at the mouth and getting traction with the financial magazines, sites and blogs. It comes down to a bunch of fools (analysts) trying to sharpshoot supply chain purchases of which they know nothing about. There has always been the group of analysts who say Apple could sell so many more phones and computers if they lowered their prices. BMW, Mercedes and others could also do the same, but they choose not to because they don't have to. Looking at the mobile phone market Apple has captured almost all of the profit with a few percent being taken by Samsung even they sell a ton more phones than Apple. When you have a premium product like Festool (or Apple or BMW or Rolex, etc) you can dictate the pricing not an analyst who is only worried about volume.

For the record Fortune Magazine is but a shadow of its old self. A month magazine cannot compete with the thousands of blogs and articles being posted everyday leaving them the only option which is to speculate and hype what little nugget they do have in the hopes of salvaging their business.
 
The comparison with Apple and Festool is also missing an important difference.  When Apple ships a new product it usually has new features and capabilities, they don't keeping selling the same phone and raise the price every year.  I would like to see more innovation from Festool that justifies the higher prices. 

I own a number Festool products and like using them.  Especially their dust collection.  I now dislike using some of my older tools that don't have dust collection.  I have been replacing them with Festool.
 
JimH2 said:
The prices will never go down (although I think they did on batteries one time). I have never heard of any German-made product experiencing a price reduction. The company is probably more concerned about taking care of their employees and not milking every last bit of usefulness out of them at the lowest possible price while working them to death. I'll take the price increases knowing that someone is at least benefitting.
This.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

 
JimH2 -
I didn’t overlook anything. I study the Far East, European, and American markets, daily. I’ve been a serious investor for 30+ years - And make my living as a “day trader” - Successfully making six figure trades, daily.
Say what you will... Fortune’s Apple article was only one of MANY analysts, reviews, and articles - Saying exactly the same thing. I just picked the first on the list I Googled.
Nonetheless... The POINT is:
Apple is LISTENING TO THEIR CUSTOMERS’ feedback. ADAPTING. And CHANGING .

Festool appears to NOT be listening to their historically core market: woodworkers and craftsmen - As they now appear to be further expanding their marketing and product line - Into the broad spectrum construction trades market.
The questions seem to be:
Will Festool’s business model shift erode the quality of their brand in the eyes of their core customer market?
Will they continue to buy Festool products - As Festool tries to compete in today’s tool market on “yesterday’s” reputation.
Or... Does Festool really care - If they can sell “less quality” to more tool buyers?

The Festool “protectionists” will continue to “swear by the brand” - No matter how many price increases happen without any improvements or value added to the MFT3; no matter how many Kapex motors burn out; no matter how many times they have to return their tools to Festool Service to get correctly fixed. But... Increasingly...
The majority of us woodworker/craftsmen are taking Brice Burrell’s view:
It’s a choice - And ultimately - A PRICE versus VALUE decision.
I don’t feel good about Festool’s apparent current direction. Early on, I “bought into” the Festool system. I’m still - For now - A Festool advocate.
And, I really, really, hope that I’m wrong.
But, reading the FOG every day - The “drumbeat” of discontent - Sadly - Continues.
 
Well I guess Festool will have some time to evaluate pricing strategies before next Spring and I know that they read comments. 

Peter
 
Joe Felchlin said:
A longtime buy/user of Festool products - When Ive commented on this subject -
I’ve been chastised on this forum - And even been told to “just sell” my Festool tools.
I was an relatively “early adapter”/purchaser of Festool products.
Like many of you all - I love my Festool products. I’m not selling anything.
I’m just increasingly disappointed in the direction the brand is going - And I’m hesitant about buying anything else “Festool”, given what I read/see happening.
Apparently... I’m not alone.
Many of Festool’s “forever loyal and faithful” - Are also increasingly concerned.
The “drumbeat” of discontent continues... Price increases... Tool problems... Service issues. And it’s getting “louder” - And more frequent.

On FEB 25th, Eric/ERock/ThePoplarShop - A longtime ardent Festool advocate - And producer of multiple terrific Festool “How To” videos - Said it best in his latest post:
“I don’t believe in the company anymore”.  https://youtu.be/x6KhUhfcvgA

Recently, I saw a posting by Brice Burrell, a “forever” vocal Festool apostle -
Another well known, respected - And frequent FOG poster/video producer -
Opting to look at alternatives to Festool products.
See/Search: TS 55 Reliability/Quality Problem - Reply #13  May 5, 2018
“We will be getting the Bosch version of the MT55 here in the states in the fall.  It doesn't have all the features of the Mafell but it comes in at the same price of the TS55.  I'll into replacing my 12 year old TS55 then.”

Reminds one of an old business axiom:
“Ignore your customers - They’ll go away.”

That’s exciting news.  Where did hear about the Bosch MT 55 coming to Canada?  It’s an excellent Track Saw for the money. 
 
Pricing is what it is -- if something provides value, then cost is less important. In the absence of value, price is what matters. If one does not like the price for a tool or accessory, no one is forcing you to buy it. There are good alternatives out there in a range of prices and some things are even more expensive than Festool. I do not like paying higher prices, but in the long run it really does not have a huge impact one way or the other. As others have said, FT holds value and you can often sell things for around the price you paid in time.
 
I hesitate to respond to this post only due to title contaning the word 'rant'.  I prefer the title include 'constructive advice from the loyal consumers'.

I also have concerns over the constant price increases.  I personally own several Festool products.  I have not purchased additional ones in the spring time before the increases occur.  I do not succumb to quick decisions to avoid a price increase.  If the product has improved features, I do not have an issue paying more.  I take issue with the hurry up and buy before the price goes up marketing program. 

The most recent price increases on the Festool vacs did come with some new beneficial features. I am considering purchasing the new CT Midi.  I am still conducting my research before making a final decision.

I hope some recent events are being considered by Festool when planning for their future. First is the brushless motors.  For many years Festool almost exclusively had the market on brushless motors.  I am not sure if the patents have expired, but it seems that all the major players (DeWalt, Makita, Milwaukee, Bosch, among others) seem to be constantly releasing cordless tools with brushless motors.  These manufacturers offer their tools at prices much cheaper than Festool.  They also offer the consumer hundreds of other compatible tools on the same battery platform. 

Another issue involves dust extraction.  Festool was the leader in offering tools that connect to vacs to reduce dust and collect it at the source.  With the newly enacted OSHA silica rules in the US, all the major manufacturers now offer very good HEPA vacs that connect to tools.  While the current focus of these manufacturers is on SDS drills and grinders being used for concrete (to quickly comply with the recent OSHA regs), I expect other tools and applications will quickly follow.  Many of these vacs are much cheaper and very comparable in performance to the Festool.

Also, Bosch recently released their Flexbit 12V driill which offers the same features to the Festool drills.  At a price of approx $199, it seems to be a valid competitor to Festool for the cost conscious consumer.  It also allows the consumer to use other tools Bosch offers on the same battery platform.  I expect other manufacturers might follow.

All the manufacturers now offer very strong boxes that lock together for transportation to the jobsite. For example, a consumer can purchase several of DeWalt TSTAK boxes for the cost of one Festool box.  While the TSTACK line does not have all the selection of boxes that Festool offers, their line is growing and they are much stronger and less expensive.  Milwaukee also just released their packout line of boxes which really competes with Festool from a price and performance perspective. 

The major manufacturers seem to be eating away at Festool's dynasty.  I still use and love Festool products.  Their precision make my work much easier.  I notice the Festool cult following, now has a branch of converts who are offended by the annual price increases.  Hopefully Festool can consider the valid points made by everyone.  I am not so offended by Festool that I will not purchase any new Festool product, nor I will sell all my existing Festool products.  However, I will not make any future Festool purchase if I do not see the real cost benefit to me as a consumer; a decision which has been more difficult in light of the new products from other manufacturers.  I do own tools from the other majors so I am not completely locked into the Festool system.  I can be selective. My preference is that Festool only increases the prices on existing tools when they release the same tools with improved features.  Just my thoughts.
 
I come to realize that the increase in price is in the 0.5% to 1.5% range. This is based on FestoolShop Canadian online store.

Also tools like the Kapex did not get an increase. We all know why  [wink] and to me this is an acknowledgment on Festool part.

The gas this week went from 1.28 to 1.39 that's 8%  [eek]
 
I think jg summed up many of our thoughts precisely. as Festool prices continue to rise I will be either more inlined towards brands like maffel and metabo. expensive but with real quality to show for it.

I am not offended by Festool doing this, I'm concerned the company is going to force us, actual users, to look elsewhere for tools. I've always believed in paying for quality,  buy my hand tools on my vacations to Switzerland. but I'm sorry, 720 is just too much for a mft3, this goes for more and more of there tools to.

I am a long time believer and Festool and will continue to buy there "gamechanger tools" but the added prices will have me looking elseware for the rest of them.

-Robert 

 
Look at all you guys with the rookie numbers... try come to Austalia and drop a measly $1335 for a MFT3 🤣

Yes, nothing gets cheaper in life but having an annual increase of 3 to 5 percent on what is already top tier pricing for tools that haven't changed in near a decade is a bit of a stretch. Especially when compaines like Bosch and Makita are making huge leaps with some of their tools and prices are static, if not coming down!
 
The good thing about all of these price increases for me is in recouping my investment when I sell.  The bad news for Festool is there are now fewer buyers at the top end market because those people bought my tools. 

The innovative tools that Festool's produced that I still feel compelled to hang onto?  My Domino, Vac-SYS, my partner's Conturo (jury's still out on the HKC saw).  My 5 remaining sanders, 2 drills, 2 routers, jigsaw, 2 vacuums, MFT/3 have all been equalled or surpassed by the competition (in my mind) and are open to replacement.  I've sold the Kapex, 3 sanders, 2 TS55 saws, many tracks; the buyer got them cheaper than new and I recouped the majority of my initial investment.

An increasing pricing strategy will always collapse at some point.  There has to be someone new at the entry level to pay the new price. If I can sell my Festool for my initial investment and head up to one brand or down to another with only the cost differential from what I paid several years ago until now, why not?  There's no penalty for switching.  It creates the exact opposite effect as brand loyalty.
 
LooseSox said:
Look at all you guys with the rookie numbers... try come to Austalia and drop a measly $1335 for a MFT3 🤣

Yes, nothing gets cheaper in life but having an annual increase of 3 to 5 percent on what is already top tier pricing for tools that haven't changed in near a decade is a bit of a stretch. Especially when compaines like Bosch and Makita are making huge leaps with some of their tools and prices are static, if not coming down!

We’re going to see price increases from Bosch, Makita and Stanley Dewalt B&D this year.  We’re going to have to absorb some price increases across the board. 

I would have like to see some refinement in things like the routers and battery platforms.  If Bosch finally brings their track saw to the US/Canadian market, their will be a huge shake-up in the track saw world.  The Mafell made Bosch Track Saw is a seriously good Track Saw for it’s price point.
 

We’re going to see price increases from Bosch, Makita and Stanley Dewalt B&D this year.  We’re going to have to absorb some price increases across the board. 
[/quote]

I have a DeWalt combo kit with 20V Li-Ion drill and impact driver with two 1.3Ah batteries, charger and case that I bought when the were first introduced in 2011 for $199...the same kit is available on Amazon today for $149.  Relentless price increases just like Festool!!
 
DeformedTree said:
Having standardized prices is a good thing as was mentioned by others,  race to the bottom pricing isn't good for anyone, and thus why so many companies have shifted to this model.
Good for all, except for the customers.
This kind of price fixing is illegal in many countries for exactly that reason.
 
Gregor said:
DeformedTree said:
Having standardized prices is a good thing as was mentioned by others,  race to the bottom pricing isn't good for anyone, and thus why so many companies have shifted to this model.
Good for all, except for the customers.
This kind of price fixing is illegal in many countries for exactly that reason.
I have a problem with price fixing in case of monopoly or shortage of essential goods. Otherwise I don't care. If Toyota decides to sell their autos for $1000000 a piece its their loss, I would buy Honda.
 
kevinculle said:

We’re going to see price increases from Bosch, Makita and Stanley Dewalt B&D this year.  We’re going to have to absorb some price increases across the board. 

I have a DeWalt combo kit with 20V Li-Ion drill and impact driver with two 1.3Ah batteries, charger and case that I bought when the were first introduced in 2011 for $199...the same kit is available on Amazon today for $149.  Relentless price increases just like Festool!!
[/quote]

The price increases haven’t happened yet.  They’re slated for the fall.  Festool is one of the most over margined tools in the world.  Festool is probably making 60% margins on their tools.  There really isn’t much rhyme or reason to the price increases.  Europe has low inflation and stable prices, wage inflation is low ect...

Festool is simply hiking the prices for the sake of hiking them. 
 
Svar said:
I have a problem with price fixing in case of monopoly or shortage of essential goods. Otherwise I don't care. If Toyota decides to sell their autos for $1000000 a piece its their loss, I buy Honda.

I buy neither...
 
Gregor said:
DeformedTree said:
Having standardized prices is a good thing as was mentioned by others,  race to the bottom pricing isn't good for anyone, and thus why so many companies have shifted to this model.
Good for all, except for the customers.
This kind of price fixing is illegal in many countries for exactly that reason.

It's not price fixing.  If Festool called up Mafell and other members of the Track Saw Manufactures Association of Earth and decided on a price they would all charge for track saws, that would be price fixing. This sort of action is taken seriously in most all countries including countries like the US.

Festool makes the products and says it cost X amount. There is no price fixing when the maker of it decides the price on their own. That's what every product made has. One company can not "price fix" by itself.

A company like Festool does not have to sell thru 3rd parties.  They could just sell them all themselves and the price would be the price just like it is now.  They give others the ability to sell Festool products and in exchange those re-sellers agree to the price. 

When you don't control the price across the board you get all forms of problem, mainly scammers. People go "price hunting" find some shop with a price much lower than the rest, so they buy from it and think they are getting a deal.  Maybe the product will ship, maybe they never see it, or maybe random charges end up on credit card that can't be explained, or hidden fees.  Have a problem, oops that website doesn't exist anymore, where did they go.  And will the people who got taken say "I made a mistake and didn't buy from a reputable shop?"  No, they will go online and curse the manufacture.  Having the price be the same means everyone is on the same page, people buy from where they feel is reputable, or maybe they liked the staff, or they buy from the local store since the online place is no cheaper and it means they can have the product that day and not pay shipping.

Beyond scammers, it becomes the race to the bottom.  Product cost 1000 USD.  Someone decides they can cut it to 990 USD.  Suddenly other retailers find no one is buying because people cared that much about 10 bucks (same people who drive cross town to save 2 cents on gas and thing they are "saving").  So now everyone drops 10 bucks.  Then a different shop drops 15 bucks...... Cycle continues.  Now it becomes who blinks first.  How many places can cut margin and still keep the lights on due to a silly war a few dollars at a time.  Shop after Shop bails, consumers get mad at loss of retailers they liked.  This keeps going until there is one left standing, which is almost certainly going to be the one that started the largest, so someplace like Amazon wins, and then once the last competitor is gone after the price hit 700 bucks, they turn around and the price goes to 1200 USD.  This has been going on in business since forever. But now as direct sales from manufactures has become a much more practical thing in the internet age there is a way for companies to change this.    The Manufacture->Distributor->Wholesaler->Retailer->Customer model with no skipping steps and each adding their own markup business model is dead.  Endless companies still work this way, they just don't realize how soon/quick a new player is going to go Manufacture->Customer  and blow up the world they knew.  Set pricing means both or any variation of these models can co-exist.

Apple gave the market stability, companies who sold stuff below cost and would make it up in volume went away.  If you want to end up with 1 retailer for all things in the future (Buy-N-Large as the Movie Wall-E had) then having shops drive the price and create destructive price wars, then sure, don't have pricing like Festool does.  People don't want to live thru a Wall-Mart style destruction cycle, not in their town, not online.  Sure they are cheap when they are new and growing, but once everyone else is dead they charge what ever they want.

Consumers like consistent pricing.
 
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