Festool seeking feedback on polishing products and applications

[Administrator_JSVN]

So let's take a minute to talk about polishers.  Who's using them, who has a need for one, what would you use a polisher for, etc....

Some of you may already know that Festool introduced a product in the European market recently that was designed specifically for polishing.  It's called the Festool Shinex RAP 150 Polisher. While Festool products are used extensively in other countries by the automotive industry while we cater mostly to the woodworking industry here in the US.  So we would like to gauge the level of interest in such a product and get some preliminary feedback from FOG members, acting as a focus group of sorts.

Please feel free to expand outside of the questions listed below but I thought these questions would serve as a good launching point for the discussion.  I realize price will be one of the first questions.  While pricing has not yet been determined, feel free to discuss what you would consider such a tool to be worth.

• How would you classify the type of work you do (remodeler, cabinet maker, furniture maker, etc.)?
• What types of woodworking applications do you think you would use a polisher for?
• Do you currently have a dedicated tool for polishing woodworking finishes or do you "make do" with a tool not specifically designed for polishing?
• What brand of polishers are you familiar with or do you currently use for woodworking?
• Are there any unmet expectations or needs with other polishers currently available in the marketplace for woodworking?

Link to Festool UK website: The Festool Shinex RAP 150 Polisher

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

I have several friends that have asked me about Festool being used for auto body work.

They are interested for the simple fact that they dont need a huge air compressor to run a DA.

I did a little body work on an enclosed trailer with my rotex and it worked like a champ.

I think you need to get this stuff in the hands of a good body and paint guy and you should really start to see a demand for that sort of application.

Just think, body work on a car with no dust and not having to listen to a DA and a big air compressor run.

Good stuff guys, I know it is hard to break into an existing market but, with Festool's attention to details and durable tools, I think it is a winning combination.

Sorry, I didnt mention the polisher specifically but, I just kind of lumped it together with the rest of my thoughts on the auto body work.

 

[joraft]

Shane, I think the most popular machine for auto detailing in the U.S. is the Porter-Cable 7424.

I've had one for a couple of years and I can't think of anything I'd change about it. I'm not a professional detailer, but keeping my fleet of vehicles (two cars and a truck) looking good keeps my 7424 plenty busy.  ;D

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

Aside from auto applications, do you think there is a niche for a product like this for woodworking?

Edit: In Europe, about half of the Shinex units sold are used for an application other than automotive.  However, we all know that there are differences in the way that tools are used there versus here.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

Yes, to polish my work truck! ;D

 

[ForumMFG]

I detailed cars for 5 years in my day and we used THIS polisher to polish cars.  I've been around a lot of professional detail shops, detail shops at car dealers, and people who detail their own cars and I've never seen anyone use anything but this polisher.  That porter cable I bet is a popular one for homeowners and not for professional use.

If festool offered different heads for different applications such as cleaning carpet, grout, upholstery, you can have a bigger market.

 

[joraft]

... I've been around a lot of professional detail shops, detail shops at car dealers, and people who detail their own cars and I've never seen anyone use anything but this polisher.  That porter cable I bet is a popular one for homeowners and not for professional use.

Dave, our experiences are exactly opposite. Here in L.A. we are thick with auto detail shops, and I've never seen a single Cyclo Polisher being used. 

 

[woodguy7]

Shane

I was given a white waffle pad, an orange sponge pad & a lambswool bonnet + some cutting compound (all free) from my rep.  He wanted me to try it with my Rotex 150 on my car & give him feedback.  I waited & bought their new compound, mv 9000 i think & a bottle of clear sealer coat.  It worked lovely taking small scratches out of my black Volvo & was really easy.  I was advised from the automotive guys at festool UK not to use the lambswool bonnet on my car.  I made a pair of Black Walnut bedside cabinets with a wax finish.  I used the lambswool bonnet to buff of the wax.  Man was that a nice way to finish wax.  So yes, i think there is a market for the polishing products in the woodworking industry.

Hope this helps, Woodguy.

 

[hasslefactor]

Earlier this year, I bought my first Festool - a Rotex 150 - to wet sand, compound, polish and wax our 28' sailboat. The boat has BLACK gelcoat, so the work was pretty fussy - and I'm pretty particular, especially when it comes to investing massive amounts of time and effort. I'm delighted with the Rotex, especially now that I have some big sanding projects to do at home. By the way, I am not a woodworker, unless refinishing counts (I suspect it doesn't, because no matter how many times I say that, no one has ever jumped in to say, "Oh, yes! Refinishing DOES count!" - I do like planes, though, and chisels... perhaps I will learn to carve). I am, however, VERY interested in more Festool polishing options in connection with refinishing. More on that at the end.

When I started shopping for the right tool for the boat project, I was actually looking for a Makita 9227C. The Festool RAP 150 appears to me to be in the same class as the Makita 9227C, whereas the Rotex would be similar in purpose to the Makita BO6040 (all of these tools are, I believe, substantially more aggressive than the Porter Cable mentioned by John above). As it turned out, the Makita 9227C was WAY too heavy for me, and I didn't feel confident that I could control it. However, if the RAP 150 had been available at the time, I would have seriously considered it as an alternative.

I used the Rotex with a supersoft sanding pad (backing plate) for all the work on my boat, with

• Platin 2 abrasives for the wet sanding (excellent);
• A 7.5" 3M twisted wool pad for heavy compounding (disappointing - it worked well, but fell apart by the end);
• 7.5" Lake Country CCR pads (sponges) for light compounding, polishing, glazing and waxing (excellent).
• Presta Ultra Cutting Compound.
• Presta Chroma 1500 Polish (diminishing grit for one-step polishing and glazing).
• Meguiar's NXT Generation Tech Wax 2.0.

The RO150 was GREAT, and I was delighted with the results - a very shiny boat that is still getting all kinds of compliments after an entire summer in a lake that is not especially clean. I used the Rotex in RO (random orbit) mode for applying the wax, and in Rotex (rotary) mode for everything else. We buffed off the wax by hand, but next year I intend to use the Rotex for buffing as well. There's a plastic rim around the hook & loop surface of the 3M and Lake Country CCR pads that fits the RO150's 6" supersoft sanding pad nicely (although it's a bit fiddly to center them exactly).

I initially wanted to use the full line of Festool pads (sponges) for the work, and probably would have, if my local dealer carried them (they do not carry any of Festool's polishing accessories, nor do they carry many of the sanders, or any of the Platin 2 abrasives). As it turned out, however, I think the 7.5" wool pad and CCR sponges were probably better suited for this application than the current Festool sponges. For example:

• The wool / sponge material wraps around the edges of the pads to the back, which protects adjoining surfaces - Festool's polishing sponges do not have this;
• The outside edge of the larger (7.5") diameter pads spins faster than the smaller diameter (5") Festool sponges do - this causes the compound and polish grits to break down faster, effectively cutting the hard gelcoat with less effort (which makes things easier on both the Rotex AND its operator)
• The very hard Festool polishing plate is, in my opinion, unsuited to the curved surface of a boat's hull

I would have liked to try the Festool polishes, but they are not available in the US. The Presta products I used were terrific, though, and worth the considerable effort required to find them (NOTE: the Presta products are only suitable for machine polishing. It is very difficult, if not possible, to generate sufficient heat to break them down by hand. On the areas of the transom that required doing the work by hand, I used 3M products).

I would love to see Festool substantially expand its polishing tools and accessories lineup in the US. If Festool were to offer a full range of 7.5" wool pads and foam sponges suitable for automotive and fiberglass applications, specifically engineered for use with the Rotex, I would be in boat polishing heaven. I would probably even start polishing the cars (My husband would be almost as delighted as he was with the boat. And yes, you read that right - I'm the wife).

But what would really (and I mean REALLY REALLY) make me happy, is buffing/polishing accessories for Festool sanders like the DTS 400 and DX 93. The Rotex can easily manage polishing or buffing a table or desk top - but it would be MARVELOUS not to have to do all those tricky little corners in drawers and cases by hand.

Thanks for asking!

 

[Wonderwino]

Pictures, Laurie?  Or maybe some video?  8)

 

[Tim Sproul]

Aside from auto applications, do you think there is a niche for a product like this for woodworking?

probably not.

For woodworking, the surface that requires a high gloss polish is almost always flat.  It may be vertical or horizontal, but almost always flat.

For flat work, you need a 'stable' polishing pad/machine to avoid getting a wavy topcoat.  For obvious reasons, automotive and boating are different in this regard as almost no surface is flat.

For myself, I like using the rotex and then finish up with a 150/3 or 150/5....the 150 ETS sanders help me keep the surface flat.  They avoid that wavy look you can - not will - get if you use a rotex or similar machine the entire time.  Now put a dedicated polishing head on a 150 ETS or RS2 machine platform.......

 

[VictorL]

Shane,

I'm just wondering why you do not promote sanders and abrasives for automotive industry in USA?
I use polisher seldom, but when I need it, I need it without doubt.
I use my friend's  Makita 9227CX3 polisher.
60% Car polishing
20% Metal polishing (chrome, copper, bronze
10% Wood surfaces
10% Plastic surfaces

 

[RONWEN]

I must remind you Ms. hasselefactor that I have referred to your new found interest as a woodworker.   ;D  Your latest desk project will certainly carry well past "refinishing".

Earlier this year, I bought my first Festool - a Rotex 150 - to wet sand, compound, polish and wax our 28' sailboat. The boat has BLACK gelcoat, so the work was pretty fussy - and I'm pretty particular, especially when it comes to investing massive amounts of time and effort. I'm delighted with the Rotex, especially now that I have some big sanding projects to do at home. By the way, I am not a woodworker, unless refinishing counts (I suspect it doesn't, because no matter how many times I say that, no one has ever jumped in to say, "Oh, yes! Refinishing DOES count!" - I do like planes, though, and chisels... perhaps I will learn to carve). I am, however, VERY interested in more Festool polishing options in connection with refinishing. More on that at the end.

When I started shopping for the right tool for the boat project, I was actually looking for a Makita 9227C. The Festool RAP 150 appears to me to be in the same class as the Makita 9227C, whereas the Rotex would be similar in purpose to the Makita BO6040 (all of these tools are, I believe, substantially more aggressive than the Porter Cable mentioned by John above). As it turned out, the Makita 9227C was WAY too heavy for me, and I didn't feel confident that I could control it. However, if the RAP 150 had been available at the time, I would have seriously considered it as an alternative.

I used the Rotex with a supersoft sanding pad (backing plate) for all the work on my boat, with

• Platin 2 abrasives for the wet sanding (excellent);
• A 7.5" 3M twisted wool pad for heavy compounding (disappointing - it worked well, but fell apart by the end);
• 7.5" Lake Country CCR pads (sponges) for light compounding, polishing, glazing and waxing (excellent).
• Presta Ultra Cutting Compound.
• Presta Chroma 1500 Polish (diminishing grit for one-step polishing and glazing).
• Meguiar's NXT Generation Tech Wax 2.0.

The RO150 was GREAT, and I was delighted with the results - a very shiny boat that is still getting all kinds of compliments after an entire summer in a lake that is not especially clean. I used the Rotex in RO (random orbit) mode for applying the wax, and in Rotex (rotary) mode for everything else. We buffed off the wax by hand, but next year I intend to use the Rotex for buffing as well. There's a plastic rim around the hook & loop surface of the 3M and Lake Country CCR pads that fits the RO150's 6" supersoft sanding pad nicely (although it's a bit fiddly to center them exactly).

I initially wanted to use the full line of Festool pads (sponges) for the work, and probably would have, if my local dealer carried them (they do not carry any of Festool's polishing accessories, nor do they carry many of the sanders, or any of the Platin 2 abrasives). As it turned out, however, I think the 7.5" wool pad and CCR sponges were probably better suited for this application than the current Festool sponges. For example:

• The wool / sponge material wraps around the edges of the pads to the back, which protects adjoining surfaces - Festool's polishing sponges do not have this;
• The outside edge of the larger (7.5") diameter pads spins faster than the smaller diameter (5") Festool sponges do - this causes the compound and polish grits to break down faster, effectively cutting the hard gelcoat with less effort (which makes things easier on both the Rotex AND its operator)
• The very hard Festool polishing plate is, in my opinion, unsuited to the curved surface of a boat's hull

I would have liked to try the Festool polishes, but they are not available in the US. The Presta products I used were terrific, though, and worth the considerable effort required to find them (NOTE: the Presta products are only suitable for machine polishing. It is very difficult, if not possible, to generate sufficient heat to break them down by hand. On the areas of the transom that required doing the work by hand, I used 3M products).

I would love to see Festool substantially expand its polishing tools and accessories lineup in the US. If Festool were to offer a full range of 7.5" wool pads and foam sponges suitable for automotive and fiberglass applications, specifically engineered for use with the Rotex, I would be in boat polishing heaven. I would probably even start polishing the cars (My husband would be almost as delighted as he was with the boat. And yes, you read that right - I'm the wife).

But what would really (and I mean REALLY REALLY) make me happy, is buffing/polishing accessories for Festool sanders like the DTS 400 and DX 93. The Rotex can easily manage polishing or buffing a table or desk top - but it would be MARVELOUS not to have to do all those tricky little corners in drawers and cases by hand.

Thanks for asking!

 

[mntbighker]

I have tried my RO150 with foam pad and Klasse polish and then the lambs wool on my white car. I was pretty happy with the handling and results.

 

[score0matic]

Shane, I think the most popular machine for auto detailing in the U.S. is the Porter-Cable 7424.

I've had one for a couple of years and I can't think of anything I'd change about it. I'm not a professional detailer, but keeping my fleet of vehicles (two cars and a truck) looking good keeps my 7424 plenty busy.  ;D

John unfortunally that pc has just been droped for a new "improved" via  black and decker 

Craig

 

[score0matic]

Shane
if you can put a water feed and gfi on it I would buy it for stone.
Craig

 

[Groggy]

How would you classify the type of work you do (remodeler, cabinet maker, furniture maker, etc.)?
furniture maker (hobbyist)

What types of woodworking applications do you think you would use a polisher for?
Flat work only.

Do you currently have a dedicated tool for polishing woodworking finishes or do you "make do" with a tool not specifically designed for polishing?
I use a variety: lathe, grinder mounted buffs, drills and ROTEX/ETS150 etc.

What brand of polishers are you familiar with or do you currently use for woodworking?
ROTEX and a drill with a swansdown buff.

Are there any unmet expectations or needs with other polishers currently available in the marketplace for woodworking?
high gloss has limited application and is normally commercial. Hobbyists tend to vary from flat to semi-gloss unless they can control the dust well so I would state, in my opinion, the tool would have limited woodworking application for a hobbyist.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

So let's take a minute to talk about polishers.  Who's using them, who has a need for one, what would you use a polisher for, etc....

Some of you may already know that Festool introduced a product in the European market recently that was designed specifically for polishing.  It's called the Festool Shinex RAP 150 Polisher.

I would love to give you an opinion, after all, I told Rick B. that I could use one of these to clean up my dilapidated pickup truck last spring, but did I get one? Noooo. But I suppose maybe it is sitting inside my systainer port in the back of the warehouse.  ;D ;D ;D

 

[woodshopdemos]

I have a Milwaukee 7" polisher...the same model I used in the 50's when I was car polisher.

Here is story: http://www.woodshopdemos.com/jrl-26.htm

It is very heavy and can tire you very quickly. It also is very aggresive and you can burn though finishes very rapidly. If I had Rotex at that time, I sure would have used it.

Did use the Rotex 150 when experimenting with the Menzerna compounds.

Here is page: http://www.woodshopdemos.com/KoaFin-5.htm

 

[family]

Got to be honest with you guy's, I was very reluctant with polishing wood to a finish at first. I thought using polishing compounds on wood would create a total mess. I just knew that the compound would bury itself in the grain and cause a nightmare with the clearcoat. I was completely and totally wrong. It does just as well on wood as it does polishing on metal. My first polishing job was on a bowl I had just finished turning. I had purchased a Beal polishing kit that used Buffing Wheels and also comes with sample compounds. When I finished polishing the bowl it looked like I had already clearcoated it. It simply and I mean simply put a mirror finish on the bowl. I'm sold on polishing wood. I have looked at some replicable name polishers that's on the market but they are just to big for me to try to handle. Those are made to use 7" to 9" sanding disc and the polishing bonnets are optional. I like the looks of the Festool Polisher in the picture. It looks like in the picture that I could handle this one.  I would like to see this on the American Market. I know that I would purchase one.