Festool UK TTS fined 8.2 million Euros for price fixing in Europe!

[jmbfestool]

I spoke to my regular dealer about this and how dealers already dropping the prices he said he was doing some discount on some of the tools but he said if he has to start discounting a lot to match other dealers/Internet he's going to just drop festool and just go with makita and Bosch etc.

He said it will lower the brands image and it will just become like makita dewalt.  He did say festool will most likely try to stop this he can't see festool allowing this to happen to their brand.

Jmb

 

[ajones]

I spoke to my regular dealer about this and how dealers already dropping the prices he said he was doing some discount on some of the tools but he said if he has to start discounting a lot to match other dealers/Internet he's going to just drop festool and just go with makita and Bosch etc.

He said it will lower the brands image and it will just become like makita dewalt.   He did say festool will most likely try to stop this he can't see festool allowing this to happen to their brand.

Jmb

Jmb this would be the regular dealer that has been supplying you with discounted festools for some time?? [poke]

 

[jmbfestool]

I spoke to my regular dealer about this and how dealers already dropping the prices he said he was doing some discount on some of the tools but he said if he has to start discounting a lot to match other dealers/Internet he's going to just drop festool and just go with makita and Bosch etc.

He said it will lower the brands image and it will just become like makita dewalt.   He did say festool will most likely try to stop this he can't see festool allowing this to happen to their brand.

Jmb

Jmb this would be the regular dealer that has been supplying you with discounted festools for some time?? [poke]

lol  [unsure]

 

[Guy Ashley]

Festool tools are not cheap, we accept that and we still purchase them because of the quality and also in my case the quality of service and speedy repairs are worth the premium.

Twice recently I have had to have repairs, Domino DF500 (2yrs 9months old), Kapex (20 months old).

On each occasion I have rung Festool UK (TTS) at 0830 in the morning and the tool has been collected the same day by courier.

Again on each occasion they have been back with me, repaired and checked, within 3 working days, all at no cost whatsoever to me and if anyone knows of another powertool company that provides that level of customer support and back up then I would like to hear who they are.

If we want to have cheap and no support then buy Ryobi, if you want quality and exceptional support, then bite the bullet and pay and stop whinging!

 

[Stone Message]

Festool tools are not cheap, we accept that and we still purchase them because of the quality and also in my case the quality of service and speedy repairs are worth the premium.

Twice recently I have had to have repairs, Domino DF500 (2yrs 9months old), Kapex (20 months old).

On each occasion I have rung Festool UK (TTS) at 0830 in the morning and the tool has been collected the same day by courier.

Again on each occasion they have been back with me, repaired and checked, within 3 working days, all at no cost whatsoever to me and if anyone knows of another powertool company that provides that level of customer support and back up then I would like to hear who they are.

If we want to have cheap and no support then buy Ryobi, if you want quality and exceptional support, then bite the bullet and pay and stop whinging!

I think that Guy has made a valid point. In my experience one can always get a deal 'sweetened' by getting accessories either thrown in or heavily discounted - I have done this every time that I have bought a Festool machine. There must be people out there who have benefitted from the insurance scheme - in an odd way I feel as though I benefit as it does give me some peace of mind.

Peter

 

[green fever]

Hey Peter to prove your point about festool insurance scheme take a look at July / august copy of professional builder magazine and see the joiner who had £5000. Worth of tools replaced by festool , don't know any other tool company that provides that service , try getting that elsewhere .

 

[Stone Message]

Hey Peter to prove your point about festool insurance scheme take a look at July / august copy of professional builder magazine and see the joiner who had £5000. Worth of tools replaced by festool , don't know any other tool company that provides that service , try getting that elsewhere .

Exactly. Thanks

Peter

 

[Nigel]

In all the examples above you have dealt with Festool TTS direct and got exceptional service.

It seems you have not been going through the dealers and they are the ones discounting so why should that affect the level of service from Festool?

 

[JimB1]

It would be sad to see Festool go the way of DeWalt, Stanley and Milwaukee. When I bought my OF1010 and CT Midi, the dealer didn't have any of the Midi in stock so they let me take the demo home for the two weeks it took to get mine in. You just can't get that sort of service from other brands.

I remember reading an article a couple of years ago where they took apart a Stanley tape measure from Home Depot and the (theoretically) same model from a small regional hardware store that cost about 50% more for the "same" item. The small regional hardware store version had all metal clips beefy steel springs where the Home Depot version had ABS clips and smaller springs but they were the same model tape measure. Stanley basically built a version for Home Depot to meet the price they wanted to pay for a train load or whatever.

I hope Festool never needs to do that... the brand would be ruined.
-Jim

 

[green fever]

Nigel in response to the point you made about going direct to festool i have just recently gone through dealers to have repairs put through to tts UK and on both occasions dealers were in different parts of London who i have never set foot in before and the level of service was very good and they were not just sellers of festool tools, also i had a problem with a tool from new (festool) and a rep was down on site the next day and even came back a few days later with a replacement , this as it happens was the least expensive tool i had ever purchased from them but the level of service was still first class, try getting that with dewalt i only say that because i have dealt with them before, and i am not just a festool nut i have hilti makita Bosch dewalt elu feinn paslode and a few others so i am not entirely biased when it comes to festool , just give credit where it's due.

 

[Nigel]

Nigel in response to the point you made about going direct to festool i have just recently gone through dealers to have repairs put through to tts UK and on both occasions dealers were in different parts of London who i have never set foot in before and the level of service was very good and they were not just sellers of festool tools, also i had a problem with a tool from new (festool) and a rep was down on site the next day and even came back a few days later with a replacement , this as it happens was the least expensive tool i had ever purchased from them but the level of service was still first class, try getting that with dewalt i only say that because i have dealt with them before, and i am not just a festool nut i have hilti makita Bosch dewalt elu feinn paslode and a few others so i am not entirely biased when it comes to festool , just give credit where it's due.

Fair enough Green.I'm glad you've had good service all round. I don't know myself as I've never sent anything back. However as for TTS UK there are numerous negative threads here on the fog - in fact just about every thread that mentioned them at one time was negative but maybe they've improved recently ?

Now the real question is whether the service or the quality of the tools will suffer with dealers discounting. I don't know the answer but seeing as Festool are unlikely to sell their tools for less I can't see this affecting them [except for the fine]. In fact it seems to me they are likely to increase sales. So if quality is related to cost per unit Festools should stay Festools and I can't see the becoming like Dewalt/Makita just because the dealers sell them at competetive price . Just my opinion but I know nothing of the big wheels of commerce.

The dealer thing might change though.

I can't work out if some of the posters are defending Festool for illegal practices or just want to pay top dollar for occasional exceptional service.

 

[Guy Ashley]

Nigel

My last post on this thread perhaps needs clarification.

Let me firstly state, I am not a total Festool junkie, I have other tools that do their function, Makita belt sander thats very good for flattening panels and table tops, a Dewalt 625 in my router table and I personally dont rate the CMS, and the Carvex is a donkey!

Having said that when I have purchased Festools I have done so because their superior engineering, cost benefit in respect of time saving, and MOST of all the level of service in respect of repair and warranty is unsurpassed, and I have complemented Festool UK twice on this forum regarding their speed of repair and return.

I am self employed and my tools help me earn a living, and down time without them is money earning time lost. My tools are worked hard most days and a lot of the competition from experience, are not up to the mark.

This is where Festool are to me worth the extra in that peace of mind that I can work their nuts off and if a tool breaks on me, I will only be without it for a few days before it is returned repaired.

My concern is that IF as a result of the price cutting, there is a danger of Festool having to make cuts to the quality of their tools, or the level of service in repair being compromised then I think that would be a backward step.

The dealers still have to make a profit to survive, Festool still has to make a profit to continue producing power tools, funding R & D, and if the price squeeze gets to a point that cuts have to be made then it could impact on what we can reasonably expect.  

 

[andy5405]

I've thought about this thread quite a bit. It's a storm in a teacup, they are only tools and the most important bit will always be the bloke hanging off the end of them. The world will still keep turning and wouldn't even miss a beat if Festool disappeared in a puff of smoke tomorrow. Don't get me wrong, I seriously rate my Festool gear but this is not a massive issue.

 

[Deansocial]

I've thought about this thread quite a bit. It's a storm in a teacup, they are only tools and the most important bit will always be the bloke hanging off the end of them. The world will still keep turning and wouldn't even miss a beat if Festool disappeared in a puff of smoke tomorrow. Don't get me wrong, I seriously rate my Festool gear but this is not a massive issue.

Well said andy

 

[Deansocial]

Nigel

My last post on this thread perhaps needs clarification.

Let me firstly state, I am not a total Festool junkie, I have other tools that do their function, Makita belt sander thats very good for flattening panels and table tops, a Dewalt 625 in my router table and I personally dont rate the CMS, and the Carvex is a donkey!

Having said that when I have purchased Festools I have done so because their superior engineering, cost benefit in respect of time saving, and MOST of all the level of service in respect of repair and warranty is unsurpassed, and I have complemented Festool UK twice on this forum regarding their speed of repair and return.

I am self employed and my tools help me earn a living, and down time without them is money earning time lost. My tools are worked hard most days and a lot of the competition from experience, are not up to the mark.

This is where Festool are to me worth the extra in that peace of mind that I can work their nuts off and if a tool breaks on me, I will only be without it for a few days before it is returned repaired.

My concern is that IF as a result of the price cutting, there is a danger of Festool having to make cuts to the quality of their tools, or the level of service in repair being compromised then I think that would be a backward step.

The dealers still have to make a profit to survive, Festool still has to make a profit to continue producing power ools, funding R & D, and if the price squeeze gets to a point that cuts have to be made then it could impact on what we can reasonably expect. 

All well and good but where and how are festool going to lose out, they arent discounting the dealers are.

 

[Guy Ashley]

Nigel

My last post on this thread perhaps needs clarification.

Let me firstly state, I am not a total Festool junkie, I have other tools that do their function, Makita belt sander thats very good for flattening panels and table tops, a Dewalt 625 in my router table and I personally dont rate the CMS, and the Carvex is a donkey!

Having said that when I have purchased Festools I have done so because their superior engineering, cost benefit in respect of time saving, and MOST of all the level of service in respect of repair and warranty is unsurpassed, and I have complemented Festool UK twice on this forum regarding their speed of repair and return.

I am self employed and my tools help me earn a living, and down time without them is money earning time lost. My tools are worked hard most days and a lot of the competition from experience, are not up to the mark.

This is where Festool are to me worth the extra in that peace of mind that I can work their nuts off and if a tool breaks on me, I will only be without it for a few days before it is returned repaired.

My concern is that IF as a result of the price cutting, there is a danger of Festool having to make cuts to the quality of their tools, or the level of service in repair being compromised then I think that would be a backward step.

The dealers still have to make a profit to survive, Festool still has to make a profit to continue producing power ools, funding R & D, and if the price squeeze gets to a point that cuts have to be made then it could impact on what we can reasonably expect. 

All well and good but where and how are festool going to lose out, they arent discounting the dealers are.

[doh]

 

[Nigel]

Nigel

My last post on this thread perhaps needs clarification.

Let me firstly state, I am not a total Festool junkie, I have other tools that do their function, Makita belt sander thats very good for flattening panels and table tops, a Dewalt 625 in my router table and I personally dont rate the CMS, and the Carvex is a donkey!

Having said that when I have purchased Festools I have done so because their superior engineering, cost benefit in respect of time saving, and MOST of all the level of service in respect of repair and warranty is unsurpassed, and I have complemented Festool UK twice on this forum regarding their speed of repair and return.

I am self employed and my tools help me earn a living, and down time without them is money earning time lost. My tools are worked hard most days and a lot of the competition from experience, are not up to the mark.

This is where Festool are to me worth the extra in that peace of mind that I can work their nuts off and if a tool breaks on me, I will only be without it for a few days before it is returned repaired.

My concern is that IF as a result of the price cutting, there is a danger of Festool having to make cuts to the quality of their tools, or the level of service in repair being compromised then I think that would be a backward step.

The dealers still have to make a profit to survive, Festool still has to make a profit to continue producing power tools, funding R & D, and if the price squeeze gets to a point that cuts have to be made then it could impact on what we can reasonably expect.  

Hello Guy,

Thanks for the clarification. I'm not having a go at you personally in fact I agree with almost everything you say. I earn a living the same way,not only that but I've got that Makita belt sander and the CMT version of your router! I also believe the Carvex to be lemon but as for the CMS, well as you probably already know I rate it very highly and would hate to be without it  [tongue].

I also agree that in general Festool make exceptional tools and they have certainly made my work faster/ easier/smarter/cleaner..... so I think we're on the same page.

I remember now having sent a Protool drill back for repair and for France the service was exceptional - took about a month,fortunately I still had my ancient Makita  [smile].Hilti France took one whole year to replace a chisel broken on the first day of use!.

It seems you have had very good service from tts uk and quite rightly you rate it. That's definitely not the case for everyone as there are many posts on here to the contrary.

I'm not saying Festool are not worth paying more for as they clearly are and I've paid up time and again and been very happy with the gear. That said last winter I had started to think Festool had just become too expensive for me - I mean there is a limit for everyone.

The point is Festool have been fined very heavily for artificially holding the prices high. This action has been brought about by the dealers themselves who to my mind should be able  to set their own prices and margins and not be dictated to and threatened. Clearly the dealers are not happy with the status quo and want to deal with their clients on there own terms.It would be silly for dealers to cut prices to the point where their survival was threatened but obviously there's a fair margin otherwise the action would not have brought. Even Axminster are discounting Festool now.

Now I don't want to see Festool cut quality or their service but why should they? They still 'fix' their own prices and always will.

At the end of the day it's all gonna be decided far away from us and we'll just have to lump whatever happens.

I've thought about this thread quite a bit. It's a storm in a teacup, they are only tools and the most important bit will always be the bloke hanging off the end of them. The world will still keep turning and wouldn't even miss a beat if Festool disappeared in a puff of smoke tomorrow. Don't get me wrong, I seriously rate my Festool gear but this is not a massive issue.

That's true Andy but this is a Festool forum and most come on here to discuss all that is Festool. There are obviously far more serious issues affecting all of us and the world but for the most part we are not allowed to discuss them.

 

[green fever]

Hey guys I will name and shame any company that does not live up to my expectations and I welcome other folks to do the same, that's what part of these forums are for , just a note on prices has anyone on here looked at the tts UK site lately as I noticed at the bottom of the new carvex 420 page it states that rrp are not binding I have never noticed that before or maybe the posts on this subject has made me become more aware .

 

[Alan m]

iv seen that non binding rrp a few times. its there a while at least

 

[rxe]

This judgement is a good thing, anti competitive pricing is illegal in the EU and for good reason.  If Festool appeal, hopefully they will lose, and then get a load of costs handed to them.  IMO, the penalties for a company wantonly breaking the law should be much bigger.

I think many people here are confusing two issues.

Firstly, there is the price that Festool charge the dealer for the tool.  The judgement has no effect on that at all, Festool can charge whatever they want.  So the idea that this will mean that Festool start having to make rubbish is misguided.  DeWalt make rubbish because they choose to, not because they have to. 

Secondly, there is the margin that the dealer makes on the sale.    This judgement prevents Festool from mandating the margin.  A dealer will be free to sell at whatever price they want to - full margin, razor thin margins, or even negative margins if they are doing promotions.  If a dealer is efficient, and moves a lot of stock, they can choose to run thin margins.    This is good for the dealer and good for the customer - and presumably good for Festool as they will sell more tools. 

The people who will suffer under this regime are the small dealers, who don't shift much stock, and have to charge full margins to cover their costs.  So it is down to a trade off: do I (who orders online, and has never set foot in a dealer) have to pay inflated prices to support a dealer service that I don't want?  I think not.  In the 21st century, why should I pay a middle man to have a shop, run a warehouse, pay staff ... so that I can physically go and fetch some goods?  That's a bit 18th century. 

Now, there is nothing stopping the majority of Festool users saying "I'd rather pay full margin for my tools in order to support my dealer".  If they do that, all is good, and they have the choice to do that.    However, I would imagine that many people, when they actually have to "pay" for the service, will choose not to.

This isn't just Festool, the same thing seems to be happening to Stihl, which again is a good thing.