General question on Euro vs. US market tools

[Mini Me]

I have been running a Leeson USA motor on 75hz for many years with no smoke escaping from it yet.

50Hz?

Yes, through a VFD

 

[keithwwalker]

Great discussion, but let me be more specific, many electric tools have name plate data right on the tool that states that it will run on a range of voltages & frequencies.  It usually something like:
110-230 VAC, 50-60Hz

Can any european tool owners check their Festool tracksaw (or other device) and see if there is a voltage range for their corded tool?

I think cordless tool chargers can take 120-240, to charge the battery, so that is not at issue, but I am just speculating.

FWIW, I install a 240v 15A receptacle in the kitchen to run a euro 220v coffee maker, with an adaptor plug (normal 120v plugs won't fit).  I believe reason why fancy coffee makers sold in USA fail a lot is that they burn out with higher current.

I would never directly plug a 220v tool into a 120 outlet with an adapter plug.  You could get a step up transformer, but they are bulky & hard to find a quality unit. 

 

[MikeGE]

Can any european tool owners check their Festool tracksaw (or other device) and see if there is a voltage range for their corded tool?

I think cordless tool chargers can take 120-240, to charge the battery, so that is not at issue, but I am just speculating.

As requested for the TS55, TS75, and two battery chargers.

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[jeh]

It's next to impossible to find a direct UK 110 to US 120 or a UK 240 to US 240 plug adapter.

Just ordered my eBay history to see the name of the item I purchased to make my "adapter". The cool thing with the tools I bought is those heavy duty male and female plugs are not injection molded, which means you can remove the end without cutting the cord. I did this on one tool but I prefer the injection molded plug over the plugs you assemble on your on.

Here is the description of what I bought: 16amp 110v Yellow Site Ceeform Cable Mount Female Socket. 3 Pole PCE (213-4)

I believe the proper name is 3 Pole (213-4). Ebay has it for $12.84 with free shipping: eBay search for 152311039769

The search works as for Google search.

 

[Coen]

The 110v UK plug is just a standard 110V IEC 60309 16A plug

I can find a boatload of these adapter cables. But you might just as well make them yourself. But if you keep the tool in the USA, just replace the plug and be done...

 

[alltracman78]

The 110v UK plug is just a standard 110V IEC 60309 16A plug

I can find a boatload of these adapter cables. But you might just as well make them yourself. But if you keep the tool in the USA, just replace the plug and be done...

Adapter cables to US 120 or 240?
Link please?

 

[squall_line]

Great discussion, but let me be more specific, many electric tools have name plate data right on the tool that states that it will run on a range of voltages & frequencies.  It usually something like:
110-230 VAC, 50-60Hz

Can any european tool owners check their Festool tracksaw (or other device) and see if there is a voltage range for their corded tool?

I think cordless tool chargers can take 120-240, to charge the battery, so that is not at issue, but I am just speculating.

All of my Festool battery chargers (TCL-6, SCA-8, MXC) have plates on them that only list 120V.

Unless there is a swappable plug on a unit (either a pigtail arrangement or a click-in plug), it generally won't be multi-voltage, because there's no other safe way to get a different voltage into it.  As I mentioned in my previous post, consumer electronics are one of the more ubiquitous places to find multi-voltage inputs, because they are generally outputting low voltage (5-12v) and low amperage, and those electronics generally have a pigtail cord or easy-change plug.

The SOLE Festool item in my Festool collection that lists 110-240V is the "wall wart" transformer for the SYS-Rock radio and SysLite KAL II.  To wit, that wall wart transformer has a plug piece that can be easily swapped and is actually shipped disassembled from the wall wart itself.

The other reason I felt fairly secure in saying that most Festools aren't multi-voltage is because I purchased my Zeta P2 and one of my OF1400s from a guy who was moving from the States to Europe and was selling off all of his non-battery Festools as well as his Festool chargers.  He had hospital-grade bench equipment for voltage conversion and even he knew that moving to Europe wasn't a matter of just swapping in a different plug-it cord to get his tools to work or getting some of his European purchases to work in the States.

 

[Coen]

Festool prices in the USA are inflated compared to Europe anyway, so he might not have lost any (significant) money by selling in the USA and buying new in Europe.

The 110v UK plug is just a standard 110V IEC 60309 16A plug

I can find a boatload of these adapter cables. But you might just as well make them yourself. But if you keep the tool in the USA, just replace the plug and be done...

Adapter cables to US 120 or 240?
Link please?

NEMA 5-15 plug to IEC60309 110v 16A socket;https://toughleads.co.uk/products/american-nema-5-15-plug-to-cee-16a-110v-socket-adaptor

IEC60309 110v 16A plug to NEMA 5-15 socket;https://toughleads.co.uk/products/cee-16a-110v-plug-to-american-nema-5-15-socket-adaptor

But there is nothing magic about it. You can just make those yourself by taking an normal extension cord and replacing one end with the IEC60309 110v 16A plug / socket.

The same in 240V is probably harder to find... because who is taking their European appliances with them to the US when moving? But they too can be made. I don't really know what to search for anyway since the USA seems to have a near endless choice in different 240V outlets, but assuming you can buy separate plugs you might just as well fabricate the cable yourself.

But when importing from the UK for permant stay in the USA; just cut off the UK plug and replace with your US equivalent.

 

[alltracman78]

UK Spec HK 85
View attachment 1

Festool prices in the USA are inflated compared to Europe anyway, so he might not have lost any (significant) money by selling in the USA and buying new in Europe.

The 110v UK plug is just a standard 110V IEC 60309 16A plug

I can find a boatload of these adapter cables. But you might just as well make them yourself. But if you keep the tool in the USA, just replace the plug and be done...

Adapter cables to US 120 or 240?
Link please?

NEMA 5-15 plug to IEC60309 110v 16A socket;https://toughleads.co.uk/products/american-nema-5-15-plug-to-cee-16a-110v-socket-adaptor

IEC60309 110v 16A plug to NEMA 5-15 socket;https://toughleads.co.uk/products/cee-16a-110v-plug-to-american-nema-5-15-socket-adaptor

But there is nothing magic about it. You can just make those yourself by taking an normal extension cord and replacing one end with the IEC60309 110v 16A plug / socket.

The same in 240V is probably harder to find... because who is taking their European appliances with them to the US when moving? But they too can be made. I don't really know what to search for anyway since the USA seems to have a near endless choice in different 240V outlets, but assuming you can buy separate plugs you might just as well fabricate the cable yourself.

But when importing from the UK for permant stay in the USA; just cut off the UK plug and replace with your US equivalent.

Funny, the connector that's more niche ( UK 120 volt ) is easier to find than the more common UK 240 volt.
I hate cutting plugs if I can help it (OCD thing); I made an adapter cord for mine. But yes, very easy to cut the cord and wire a new plug on the end.

NEMA 6-15 is the US 240 volt 15 amp connector ( P on the end for plug, R on the end for receptacle).
NEMA 6-20 is the US 240 volt 20 amp connector.
The 6-15P will plug into the 6-20R and is allowed to be used in it.
The 6-20 won't plug into the 6-15 for obvious reasons.
You want one of those 2; the other 240 volt connectors are rated for ( and can carry) higher current, which if you have a short can cause a big problem.
IIRC there is also a 15 and a 20 amp twist lock connector for 240 volts FYI.
*Looked it up so there wouldn't be any confusion.
NEMA L6-15 is the 15 amp locking connector
NEMA L6-20 is the 20 amp locking connector.
In this case the 6-15 will not plug into the 6-20.*

Thinking about this UK 120 volt "requirement" has me thinking though. I wonder if there's more 120 volt tools over there than 240 volt ones? What percentage of the tools are used on jobsites vs at home? What's considered a jobsite? I would assume building a new house would be? What about renovations? Do professionals with a home workshop use 120 in their workshop? Or do they have different tools for jobsite vs home/customer site work?

 

[Crazyraceguy]

[member=79208]alltracman78[/member] I would certainly hope that guys who go back and forth between the shop and job-site would just use 110V and be done with it. Even if there was some tool that you had multiples of, it would seem to me that being able to use any of them on site would be advantageous.
Like if you had a TS55 that you used in the shop and a second one for site work in a van, but something happened to the site saw (dropped and bent the base, switch went bad, etc) the other saw is still usable on site. If you had a 240V one for the shop, you're stuck until repairs can be made. For a professional, that's a no go.

It's done because it's a requirement.

They already have enough people hurting their feet on their version of 230V plug that always ends up pins up on the floor that they had to mandate 110V on building sites to save a few life years there.

Is that seriously the reason? No way? If foot injury really is a thing, it seems like there are far easier ways to overcome that than a voltage change, simply because the plugs are different?

I honestly don't know what would happen here if you showed up on a job-site with a step-up transformer and a 240V tool? I assume that someone would blow a gasket and throw you out, but I'm not sure of it?  [huh]

 

[Coen]

[member=79208]alltracman78[/member] I would certainly hope that guys who go back and forth between the shop and job-site would just use 110V and be done with it. Even if there was some tool that you had multiples of, it would seem to me that being able to use any of them on site would be advantageous.
Like if you had a TS55 that you used in the shop and a second one for site work in a van, but something happened to the site saw (dropped and bent the base, switch went bad, etc) the other saw is still usable on site. If you had a 240V one for the shop, you're stuck until repairs can be made. For a professional, that's a no go.

Where are they gonna get 110V at home? Bring their own transformer? Afaik it's alone on the larger jobsites, not on renovations. And that is why battery tools are so popular there; no need to have half-voltage tools and the lunch shed still has 240V for the chargers.

It's done because it's a requirement.

They already have enough people hurting their feet on their version of 230V plug that always ends up pins up on the floor that they had to mandate 110V on building sites to save a few life years there.

Is that seriously the reason? No way? If foot injury really is a thing, it seems like there are far easier ways to overcome that than a voltage change, simply because the plugs are different?

No I was trolling them about the foot injuries, although it is a real thing. A typical UK plug is angled, quite heavy and as a big flat area on the back so it's most likely orientation when laying on the floor is 'pins up', while a Schuko plug is smaller, lighter, and doesn't have this huge flat back so it's most likely orientation is the pins parallel to the floor. The pins are also round and not rectangular, that helps too.

But the 110V on jobsites is definitely a requirement.

I honestly don't know what would happen here if you showed up on a job-site with a step-up transformer and a 240V tool? I assume that someone would blow a gasket and throw you out, but I'm not sure of it?  [huh]

In the USA? No idea.

 

[Coen]

UK Spec HK 85
View attachment 1

The older ones say 2300W  [tongue]

Festool prices in the USA are inflated compared to Europe anyway, so he might not have lost any (significant) money by selling in the USA and buying new in Europe.

The 110v UK plug is just a standard 110V IEC 60309 16A plug

I can find a boatload of these adapter cables. But you might just as well make them yourself. But if you keep the tool in the USA, just replace the plug and be done...

Adapter cables to US 120 or 240?
Link please?

NEMA 5-15 plug to IEC60309 110v 16A socket;https://toughleads.co.uk/products/american-nema-5-15-plug-to-cee-16a-110v-socket-adaptor

IEC60309 110v 16A plug to NEMA 5-15 socket;https://toughleads.co.uk/products/cee-16a-110v-plug-to-american-nema-5-15-socket-adaptor

But there is nothing magic about it. You can just make those yourself by taking an normal extension cord and replacing one end with the IEC60309 110v 16A plug / socket.

The same in 240V is probably harder to find... because who is taking their European appliances with them to the US when moving? But they too can be made. I don't really know what to search for anyway since the USA seems to have a near endless choice in different 240V outlets, but assuming you can buy separate plugs you might just as well fabricate the cable yourself.

But when importing from the UK for permant stay in the USA; just cut off the UK plug and replace with your US equivalent.

Funny, the connector that's more niche ( UK 120 volt ) is easier to find than the more common UK 240 volt.
I hate cutting plugs if I can help it (OCD thing); I made an adapter cord for mine. But yes, very easy to cut the cord and wire a new plug on the end.

NEMA 6-15 is the US 240 volt 15 amp connector ( P on the end for plug, R on the end for receptacle).
NEMA 6-20 is the US 240 volt 20 amp connector.
The 6-15P will plug into the 6-20R and is allowed to be used in it.
The 6-20 won't plug into the 6-15 for obvious reasons.
You want one of those 2; the other 240 volt connectors are rated for ( and can carry) higher current, which if you have a short can cause a big problem.
IIRC there is also a 15 and a 20 amp twist lock connector for 240 volts FYI.
*Looked it up so there wouldn't be any confusion.
NEMA L6-15 is the 15 amp locking connector
NEMA L6-20 is the 20 amp locking connector.
In this case the 6-15 will not plug into the 6-20.*

https://www.amazon.com/Universal-110-250V-American-Electrical-converter/dp/B07FKLLW2W

Thinking about this UK 120 volt "requirement" has me thinking though. I wonder if there's more 120 volt tools over there than 240 volt ones? What percentage of the tools are used on jobsites vs at home? What's considered a jobsite? I would assume building a new house would be? What about renovations? Do professionals with a home workshop use 120 in their workshop? Or do they have different tools for jobsite vs home/customer site work?

No way there is more 110V stuff in the UK. No clue about percentages. Afaik they are not using 110v when renovating single homes.

Remember that in the UK, as in NL, new home builds are often row houses, not unattached homes. Whole area tends to turn into a mud fest. It's not uncommon that drainage has to be used even for things 1 meter deep.

UK electricity common practices and regulations differ quite a lot from those on mainland Europe. They consider our plugs unsafe, we consider their "ring main" and plastered over cables to be unnecessary confusing and labor intensive.

You can find endless "UK house rewire" videos on Youtube where they cut open the walls and put in new cables. You won't find the equivalent for NL since we use wires in conduit. A complete home re-wire here doesn't involve cutting anything, doesn't involve anyone have to plaster anything and is perfectly legal for a lay person to do and can be done alone in 1 day.

For extensions; their flush mounted boxes are square and require a square hole in the wall that they chisel or grind into the wall. Ours are round, we just use a 82mm diamond core drill with dust extraction and be done. They inhale more dust wearing the full face mask chiseling out that square than we do putting in a round 82mm hole without face mask.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

[member=8955]Coen[/member] it's the same way here. The wires are just stapled to the studs inside the walls and quite destructive to access.
In commercial buildings it's a combination of both. In the office spaces with regular walls, it's the same as residential. In open shop/warehouse type spaces it's all in conduit, metal or PVC. I'm certainly not an electrical expert, knowing just enough to get by.

 

[squall_line]

[member=8955]Coen[/member] it's the same way here. The wires are just stapled to the studs inside the walls and quite destructive to access.
In commercial buildings it's a combination of both. In the office spaces with regular walls, it's the same as residential. In open shop/warehouse type spaces it's all in conduit, metal or PVC. I'm certainly not an electrical expert, knowing just enough to get by.

Unless you're in the city of Chicago, where they have their own addendum to the NEC that requires conduit in residential.  A significant number of the suburbs adopted that as well.  The box stores still seem to sell quite a bit of NM / Romex cable.  Fancy that...

 

[Crazyraceguy]

[member=8955]Coen[/member] it's the same way here. The wires are just stapled to the studs inside the walls and quite destructive to access.
In commercial buildings it's a combination of both. In the office spaces with regular walls, it's the same as residential. In open shop/warehouse type spaces it's all in conduit, metal or PVC. I'm certainly not an electrical expert, knowing just enough to get by.

Unless you're in the city of Chicago, where they have their own addendum to the NEC that requires conduit in residential.  A significant number of the suburbs adopted that as well.  The box stores still seem to sell quite a bit of NM / Romex cable.  Fancy that...

That's interesting, I wonder how long that has been in effect? Certainly it's for new construction and remodels where the wall is opened anyway?
I think there is something somewhat related to that with the old fashioned "knob and tube" wiring. It is perfectly fine if left alone, but once "disturbed" it must be upgraded to modern code.
This was the situation with me in my 95 year old house. About 15 years ago it was totally rewired during a remodel. This included removing screw-in fuses and a new breaker box.

 

[alltracman78]

UK Spec HK 85
View attachment 1

The older ones say 2300W  [tongue]

Bastards!

Festool prices in the USA are inflated compared to Europe anyway, so he might not have lost any (significant) money by selling in the USA and buying new in Europe.

The 110v UK plug is just a standard 110V IEC 60309 16A plug

I can find a boatload of these adapter cables. But you might just as well make them yourself. But if you keep the tool in the USA, just replace the plug and be done...

Adapter cables to US 120 or 240?
Link please?

NEMA 5-15 plug to IEC60309 110v 16A socket;https://toughleads.co.uk/products/american-nema-5-15-plug-to-cee-16a-110v-socket-adaptor

IEC60309 110v 16A plug to NEMA 5-15 socket;https://toughleads.co.uk/products/cee-16a-110v-plug-to-american-nema-5-15-socket-adaptor

But there is nothing magic about it. You can just make those yourself by taking an normal extension cord and replacing one end with the IEC60309 110v 16A plug / socket.

The same in 240V is probably harder to find... because who is taking their European appliances with them to the US when moving? But they too can be made. I don't really know what to search for anyway since the USA seems to have a near endless choice in different 240V outlets, but assuming you can buy separate plugs you might just as well fabricate the cable yourself.

But when importing from the UK for permant stay in the USA; just cut off the UK plug and replace with your US equivalent.

Funny, the connector that's more niche ( UK 120 volt ) is easier to find than the more common UK 240 volt.
I hate cutting plugs if I can help it (OCD thing); I made an adapter cord for mine. But yes, very easy to cut the cord and wire a new plug on the end.

NEMA 6-15 is the US 240 volt 15 amp connector ( P on the end for plug, R on the end for receptacle).
NEMA 6-20 is the US 240 volt 20 amp connector.
The 6-15P will plug into the 6-20R and is allowed to be used in it.
The 6-20 won't plug into the 6-15 for obvious reasons.
You want one of those 2; the other 240 volt connectors are rated for ( and can carry) higher current, which if you have a short can cause a big problem.
IIRC there is also a 15 and a 20 amp twist lock connector for 240 volts FYI.
*Looked it up so there wouldn't be any confusion.
NEMA L6-15 is the 15 amp locking connector
NEMA L6-20 is the 20 amp locking connector.
In this case the 6-15 will not plug into the 6-20.*

https://www.amazon.com/Universal-110-250V-American-Electrical-converter/dp/B07FKLLW2W

Thinking about this UK 120 volt "requirement" has me thinking though. I wonder if there's more 120 volt tools over there than 240 volt ones? What percentage of the tools are used on jobsites vs at home? What's considered a jobsite? I would assume building a new house would be? What about renovations? Do professionals with a home workshop use 120 in their workshop? Or do they have different tools for jobsite vs home/customer site work?

No way there is more 110V stuff in the UK. No clue about percentages. Afaik they are not using 110v when renovating single homes.

Remember that in the UK, as in NL, new home builds are often row houses, not unattached homes. Whole area tends to turn into a mud fest. It's not uncommon that drainage has to be used even for things 1 meter deep.

UK electricity common practices and regulations differ quite a lot from those on mainland Europe. They consider our plugs unsafe, we consider their "ring main" and plastered over cables to be unnecessary confusing and labor intensive.

You can find endless "UK house rewire" videos on Youtube where they cut open the walls and put in new cables. You won't find the equivalent for NL since we use wires in conduit. A complete home re-wire here doesn't involve cutting anything, doesn't involve anyone have to plaster anything and is perfectly legal for a lay person to do and can be done alone in 1 day.

For extensions; their flush mounted boxes are square and require a square hole in the wall that they chisel or grind into the wall. Ours are round, we just use a 82mm diamond core drill with dust extraction and be done. They inhale more dust wearing the full face mask chiseling out that square than we do putting in a round 82mm hole without face mask.
[/quote]

Your next task is to find me the winning lottery numbers for tomorrow night. [laughing]

I was thinking about the batteries tools after I posted that. That makes a lot more sense for them given the situation.

I sense some hostility towards the UK there. [laughing]

 

[MikeGE]

I sense some hostility towards the UK there. [laughing]

I don't know if it's hostility or disbelief.  The wiring system used in the UK seems to be untouched by progress since the second world war.  As I understand it, the ring system was designed to compensate for a lack of resources, namely copper wire.  As a result, each outlet is switched and each consumer plug has a fuse.

The electrical distribution embedded in the masonry or plastered walls is not limited to the UK.  I have seen many renovation projects in Germany that involve chiseling out old two-wire cables, only to be replaced with newer three-wire cables that are replastered back into the walls.

 

[Coen]

Not hostility, it's just making fun of.

 

[keithwwalker]

For those interested, you can get plug converters here at International Configurations, Inc:
Here is my euro plug converter for the coffee machine that plugs into a NEMA 6-20 240VAC outlet (typical use for such an outlet in the USA is for a room air conditioner, I installed one on a custom basis - gf purchased a euro machine thinking it would make great tasting euro coffee, lol  [eek] [blink])
https://internationalconfig.com/icc6.asp?item=30120-GB
Note that this feeds 240VAC to a 250VAC device, and it is within nameplate voltage range.
Always do not exceed nameplate voltage and frequency range requirements.

I suppose if you had a workshop and never used tools outside of there, you could use euro 250VAC on a 240VAC circuit.  60hz being applied to a 50hz tool may make it run faster and hotter, so duty cycle could be an issue for constant use.  I think the only reason for this would be if you had moved to USA or Canada (it happens), or take advantage of cheaper tool costs in Europe (you would probably lose out on shipping costs)

I would not use this for pluging a 250VAC euro power tool into a 120VAC outlet.

The only time when that would be acceptable is when you would use an adapter for a home electronic charger, which would accept such a voltage range of 110-250VAC, again the adapter should have nameplate rating for this. 
A nice supplier for electronic adapters is Skross, top quality
https://www.skross.com/en/products/world-travel-adapters

People wonder why this would be an issue, but I reckon there is a market for running tools under different voltages if they travel between western europe and the middle east for work.

 

[Coen]

Typical things people take with them while traveling are chargers, they usually come with a europlug that fits (but not always properly  [tongue]) into many more outlets than just Schuko.