Giving my DF 500 Q one more chance before I get rid of it.

[dckchk]

    I bought my Domino machine right after it was first released.  I have never been able to depend on it to produce joints with the accuracy that I expect in the course of producing quality furniture joints.  I finally decided to abandon the fence and alignment pins entirely and rely on the base alone to establish a thickness reference to the face of a frame assembly as I normally do with a biscuit joiner.  The inadequate base size and lack of access to the base from above the machine means that it is too easy to let the back of the DF 500 drop while making the cut.  Even while clamping both mating pieces of wood to the bench and pressing vigorously on the base of the Domino, I just produced a joint that was vertically misaligned by nearly 1/32".  Had I used any of my three biscuit joiners I would not have been able to feel the discontinuity.
    The base of the DF 500 is simply inadequate to be used for joint making in this manner.  The machine should have been designed to facilitate this method which should normally be the most precise way to register a cut relative to the face surface of a face frame.
    I am going to screw my Domino machine to a large plate containing a couple of fences with adjustable stops.  This will hopefully keep the rear of the machine from sagging during a cut and otherwise generally improve joint alignment.  If I continue to experience these face surface discontinuities I will abandon the machine.  It certainly has not proved useful to me thus far.
    The Domino machine also has inexplicably not been designed to accommodate joining panels with 45 degree miters.  Apparently only picture frames are considered suitable for a 45 degree miter joint.  I have screwed a wood block with a 45 degree face to the fence through the triangular alignment holes to solve a problem which should have been addressed in the machine design.

 

[ear3]

Welcome to the FOG [member=64480]dckchk[/member] Sorry you've had problems with the Domino from the beginning

Just to clarify, is the misalignment you're experiencing lateral/horizontal (like when you don't have a an even surface on a frame member), or vertical, like when you join two panels and one is slightly higher than the other.

Have you done any calibration procedures on the pins or cursor, like those described by here?:http://www.halfinchshy.com/2011/10/calibrating-festool-domino-cursor.html

Half inch shy's posts about using the Domino generally are also very helpful:http://www.halfinchshy.com/search/label/Domino

As far as the mitered panel joint, I'm not sure I understand.  I do that joint with the Domino all the time.

 

[glass1]

Since it's such a piece of crap can I have it. I will pay shipping. Thx

 

[peter halle]

I wished you had come here previously whereas you have had your tool and have experienced issues for 5+ years (I don't remember when the Domino was released).

Perhaps you will get some help here.  I hope that the issue won't end up being something that would have been covered by the 3 year warranty.

Peter

 

[Holmz]

It seems unusual... Even I can get good results with larger model without being much of an expert at it.

If something is amiss then it should be easy to have fixed.

 

[antss]

"The base of the DF 500 is simply inadequate to be used for joint making in this manner. "

I think you're correct and that's why the fence (that you removed) is part of the tool in the first place.  Additionally the pins ( which have been replaced by plastic tabs because of patent infringement) wernt meant for vertical alignment in the first place.  They are a horizontal spacing reference - and I don't think the new tabs couldn't be used as vertical ref. at all even if you wanted to.

I'll bet if you post a video , the domino gurus will come up with something for the issue.  If not , there always seems to be a WTB classified ad looking for one and the orig. version with the pins is more desirable in my opinion.  You should have no trouble moving it for more than you paid for it - still giving someone a bargain in the deal.

The fence really needs to be attached to counteract the levering force one naturally experiences when plunging a tool of this type.  I can , and have, produce this type of error with my biscuit joiner - only it's not as big an issue because the slot is only a fraction of the depth and thickness of a domino tennon.

 

[nclemmons]

Domino works well on miters.  You just have to keep it aligned and square to the face...

Here's a thread of a china cabinet I made with mitered corners.  Toward the middle of the first post of photos you can see the joints.

http://festoolownersgroup.com/member-projects/walnut-china-cabinet/msg488008/#msg488008

I did not take a photo of cutting the slots, but I've found you can cut miters if you put the bulk of your weight on the front handle at 45 degrees and gently plunge from the back.  Take your time plunging with a vacuum attached. 

Welcome to the FOG, BTW and sorry you have owned the tool as long as you have and never found this forum.

 

[Corwin]

I wished you had come here previously whereas you have had your tool and have experienced issues for 5+ years (I don't remember when the Domino was released).

Perhaps you will get some help here.  I hope that the issue won't end up being something that would have been covered by the 3 year warranty.

In a couple of months it will have been 10 years since the Domino was released here in the US. The years just fly by.  [sad]

 

[leakyroof]

I wished you had come here previously whereas you have had your tool and have experienced issues for 5+ years (I don't remember when the Domino was released).

Perhaps you will get some help here.  I hope that the issue won't end up being something that would have been covered by the 3 year warranty.

In a couple of months it will have been 10 years since the Domino was released here in the US. The years just fly by.  [sad]

. REALLY.... [eek]. Geez.....

 

[DrD]

I use mitered joints frequently, cutting them on the Kapex or MFT/3 using Qwas dogs.  Putting the 2 pieces to be joined together, I place a domino perpendicularly across the miter joint (for getting the right size domino and for locating the position of the mortise), and then with a straight edge, draw a line at the approx. center of the domino perpendicular to the angled surface.  By aligning the mark on the DF500 base with the drawn line, I plunge mortises into each face - voila. 

Following the technique reported by both Halfinchshy and erock here on the FOG, and others as well, I grasp the end of the DF500 barrel and plunge slowly - it does work.  I had to practice a fair amount to get the mortises centered, not curved or angled, but now it is a slam dunk.

I hope you have success with your DF; if you don't, contact me and I'll take it off your hands.

DrD

 

[Cheese]

There is a slight learning curve involved...

However, I found that if I didn't grab the end of the DF 500 in a "death grip" but rather lightly using just 3-4 fingers, then the front of the DF 500 didn't lift and the positional locations became repeatable. This lighter grip also allowed me to feed the DF 500 into the wood in a more even/consistent manner.

 

[DrD]

[member=44099]Cheese[/member]

Absolutely correct.  I think it was Halfinchshy that noted grip at the back AND grip lightly.  I found, that for me anyway, that's the way to use the DF500.

DrD

 

[Kev]

I'm mystified why anyone would want to own 3 biscuit joiners ...

 

[Svar]

I'm mystified why anyone would want to own 3 biscuit joiners ...

Says the guy who owns 45362 systainers...  [poke]
But seriously, you can have them set up with different cutters for different tasks ready to go.

 

[dckchk]

  I probably shouldn't have posted as I realize it often takes more time to explain your problem to others than to sort it out yourself.  As you might guess from the time I've had this tool that I'm not an inexperienced user.  I'm not a pro but I've been doing woodworking and construction projects since I was a boy.  I'll be 80 in July.
  My primary interest in the DF 500 Domino was for quick frame and panel assembly.  After wasting much time with calibration (including sending it back for factory recalibration) and attachments, I finally decided to forget about trying to get precise horizontal (i.e. round edge to round edge) alignment. I reasoned that a joint made with over-wide mortises is more than strong enough for my purposes given the tight fitting domino faces.  I could therefore use the biscuit strategy and adjust the positioning during assembly.  All would be fine if the DQ 500 would produce mortises aligned vertically (flat face to one surface) to one consistently constant dimension.  Just as with a biscuit joiner, my preference was for that dimension to be defined by the height of the cutter above the base of the tool.  I preferred this as a default method specifically because it could never vary.  It could not be altered by a slipping fence and I don't have to remember where a fence was set.  The fact that the mortise is not centered is actually helpful in maintaining proper face orientation.  None of this is in any way related to pins or tabs - or to calibration of any kind.  The only thing the tool has to do is cut a hole at the same height above its base every time.  That it can do - if and only if I am excruciatingly careful to press the front of the tool while supporting the back and plunging in a properly smooth and controlled way.
  I should point out that recently I decided to use the tool to quickly make some small boxes with mitered sides.  The sides were 5/8" thick so if the assembled box is flat on a table the the dominos needed to be round edges up and down in the mitered joint.  Also the outside surfaces show so the slots need to be referenced to the outside.  This I believe is not a standard use of the tool.  I chose to do this by cutting a wood block with a 45 degree face and attaching it to the folding fence so that the sharp edge of the wood is against the fixed face of the DQ 500.  When set up in this manner a box side with a 45 degree edge is mortised on its 45 degree surface.
  While in the process of cutting these mitered box mortises I found the pins to be in the way and removed them after which I found that I was actually better able to align the machine by eye for all other applications.
  So -- at this point in time I am able to quite easily cut tight fitting mortises which are fairly well aligned in the horizontal which everyone seems to worry without using alignment pins.  What I cannot do is keep the vertical alignment consistently registered to one flat panel face without a very tedious attention to where forces are being applied and how things are being clamped during the cut. I takes too much of my time in contrast to a biscuit joiner which is relatively instantaneous and produces excellent alignment.
  My solution for this is to screw the DQ 500 down to a large plate with a pair of fences aligned to the fixed Domino face.  A sliding stop on each of the fences should facilitate horizontal alignment of workpieces but the primary benefit would be to prevent the DQ 500 from moving vertically at all.  If mortises need to be cut in a large project a Woodpeckers auxiliary fence should improve accuracy over the Festool fence.
 

 

[leakyroof]

  I probably shouldn't have posted as I realize it often takes more time to explain your problem to others than to sort it out yourself.  As you might guess from the time I've had this tool that I'm not an inexperienced user.  I'm not a pro but I've been doing woodworking and construction projects since I was a boy.  I'll be 80 in July.
  My primary interest in the DF 500 Domino was for quick frame and panel assembly.  After wasting much time with calibration (including sending it back for factory recalibration) and attachments, I finally decided to forget about trying to get precise horizontal (i.e. round edge to round edge) alignment. I reasoned that a joint made with over-wide mortises is more than strong enough for my purposes given the tight fitting domino faces.  I could therefore use the biscuit strategy and adjust the positioning during assembly.  All would be fine if the DQ 500 would produce mortises aligned vertically (flat face to one surface) to one consistently constant dimension.  Just as with a biscuit joiner, my preference was for that dimension to be defined by the height of the cutter above the base of the tool.  I preferred this as a default method specifically because it could never vary.  It could not be altered by a slipping fence and I don't have to remember where a fence was set.  The fact that the mortise is not centered is actually helpful in maintaining proper face orientation.  None of this is in any way related to pins or tabs - or to calibration of any kind.  The only thing the tool has to do is cut a hole at the same height above its base every time.  That it can do - if and only if I am excruciatingly careful to press the front of the tool while supporting the back and plunging in a properly smooth and controlled way.
  I should point out that recently I decided to use the tool to quickly make some small boxes with mitered sides.  The sides were 5/8" thick so if the assembled box is flat on a table the the dominos needed to be round edges up and down in the mitered joint.  Also the outside surfaces show so the slots need to be referenced to the outside.  This I believe is not a standard use of the tool.  I chose to do this by cutting a wood block with a 45 degree face and attaching it to the folding fence so that the sharp edge of the wood is against the fixed face of the DQ 500.  When set up in this manner a box side with a 45 degree edge is mortised on its 45 degree surface.
  While in the process of cutting these mitered box mortises I found the pins to be in the way and removed them after which I found that I was actually better able to align the machine by eye for all other applications.
  So -- at this point in time I am able to quite easily cut tight fitting mortises which are fairly well aligned in the horizontal which everyone seems to worry without using alignment pins.  What I cannot do is keep the vertical alignment consistently registered to one flat panel face without a very tedious attention to where forces are being applied and how things are being clamped during the cut. I takes too much of my time in contrast to a biscuit joiner which is relatively instantaneous and produces excellent alignment.
  My solution for this is to screw the DQ 500 down to a large plate with a pair of fences aligned to the fixed Domino face.  A sliding stop on each of the fences should facilitate horizontal alignment of workpieces but the primary benefit would be to prevent the DQ 500 from moving vertically at all.  If mortises need to be cut in a large project a Woodpeckers auxiliary fence should improve accuracy over the Festool fence.

. If you aren't watching it closely, the fence can creep on you, and throw off your vertical height and subsequently the mortise. The lever or arm on the fence has to be tightened more than you might think on some Dominos. I've had mine move on me years after getting it and using it. So, it can just sneak in there on you.....

 

[nclemmons]

I happen to have both the pin and drop style bases.  My original Domino was ruined in a shop flood a few years ago and I kept the base.  But I actually use the pin base the most and have not had issues with the pins.  But I understand how they can drop and cause you hassle with your alignment.

I assume you are using the fence at 45 degrees?  I've never had the need to index from the outside corner rather than the inside corner.  When I have a thinner piece like your 5/8 inch example, I have used a piece of 1/8" or 1/4" material double stick taped under the fence to bring the mortise closer to the interior corner but still prevent blowout. 

The other thing you might try is to measure from the interior corner on your pieces and create a fence positioned perpendicular to the piece you are mortising, but the width of the Domino fence away so you can consistently index across the face of the 45 degree joint with less chance of slippage.  You can clamp that fence down so that you can butt the Domino fence up to it and get a consistent distance registered for each mortise. 

Another option is to use double stick sandpaper on the Domino fence to better hold in place and not have to use the fence.

I have not had a problem with the tool moving, but these ideas might be alternatives for you to consider.

On your attempt to align the tool, have you read Rick Christopherson's supplemental manual?  It has the procedure for adjusting the index line. 

As far as mortise width, I usually use the narrow setting on fine furniture mortises where I need great alignment and I will sand down the rounds on the Dominos or even cut them down by 1/8" with a bandsaw to give a bit more adjustment when assembling. 

Good luck!

 

[dckchk]

As I indicated in my last post, I am not having difficulties with horizontal alignment, especially with the pins removed.  I'm able to make accurate cuts into the ends of sticks  and even slightly widen the cut to provide slight wiggle room without without the trim fence or sandpaper. My problems are with vertical cut alignment.  I have had issues with fence slippage at times but my biggest disappointment has been an inability to make repeatable accurate cuts referenced off the base of the machine.  The base is simply not long enough to prevent dropping the motor during or prior to the plunge unless heavy pressure is applied to the fixed part of the fence assembly.  This is difficult and uncomfortable to do or requires depending on solid locking of the folding fence.

Regarding miters, I find referencing to a 135-deg angle to be less accurate and slower than referencing to the 45-deg angle as is usually done with a biscuit joiner.  Also I prefer my reference to be on the outside faces of many joints.

Regarding the possession of three biscuit joiners, I virtually wore out my first machine after a decade of use.  After purchasing a replacement, I discovered a minispot cutter on eBay for $10. and bought a machine dedicated to its use.

 

[dckchk]

I just decided to make a repeat test joint with no requirement other than producing one matching surface.  I clamped each workpiece with a bench hold-down.  I locked the Domino fence mechanism and presented the tool against each workpiece with heavy pressure on the fence assembly and made smoothly controlled cuts.  When I finished and joined the dry assembly, the two surfaces which were against the bench-top during the cut were about 1/32 mismatched.  I am now not optimistic that screwing the tool to a jig is going to improve the joint but I plan to try it anyway.

 

[Kev]

I just decided to make a repeat test joint with no requirement other than producing one matching surface.  I clamped each workpiece with a bench hold-down.  I locked the Domino fence mechanism and presented the tool against each workpiece with heavy pressure on the fence assembly and made smoothly controlled cuts.  When I finished and joined the dry assembly, the two surfaces which were against the bench-top during the cut were about 1/32 mismatched.  I am now not optimistic that screwing the tool to a jig is going to improve the joint but I plan to try it anyway.

There's either something wrong with your Domino or your technique. I'm not leaning towards it being one or the other, I'm simply saying this because myself and many others have a vastly different experience.

Is there anyone in your area you can connect with that has a Domino that you could go and experience?