Going metric

Very intresting discussion.  :D
I live and work in Switzerland where we know nothing else but metric measurements....
Each time i read something in a (great) forum like this or I want to buy a tool in the U.S. (because its once again not available in Europe) my poket calcuator is on my side. I just cant get myself inside the spirit of these fractions..... an I almost hit the roof when i started to work with the leigh dovetail jig which mixes up metric and fraction.

However. There was the statement that too many milimeters are converted in for an example meters to handle it easier. That might be true when you talk to somebody. But on the plans there are always milimeters. Always. You even dont have to mention it on the plans because everybody is aware of that fact. That sounds complicated but makes things in my eyes much easier. And it works: In earlier days i use to be an watchmaker and (dealing with small dimensions). Lather I became an (pipe-) organbuilder and the bigest instrument we have done was about 11500mm high (11 and a half meters).  So from my point of view mm works in any dimension....

Michael
 
I prematurely ditched imperial, thinking I wouldn't use it at all in Australia. But a lot of the film gear comes from the States, so when I'm doing that I use both systems. But only a rough callout is imperial, as in "build a 12 by 12 ultrabounce". Or using Kee Klamps and speedrail, all in feet. Camera bolts are 3/8. Anything actually measured and cut to fit is metric.
 
I have always preferred Metric and so Festool just makes that easier.  :)

Whenever I make my own plans for something I always use Metric.  When using Imperial plans from someone else, I often convert them to metric.

Unfortunately  >:( , when Canada converted to the metric system back in the 1970's a lot of wimpy politicians and bureaucrats let people get away with soft conversion, so the country only half converted.
 
The way I was taught to mark those dreaded "in between" fractions was by the plus/minus method. If I am at the 16th mark I cut plus or minus that mark. I know some will be bellicose in their indignation at the thought of this.
Wood movement has always been ingrained (no pun intended ;D) in me. So being plus or minus either system is fine for me in MOST situations. Nothing is ever all inclusive. For the most part, depending on what I am cutting, machining tolerances are not that critical to me.
My present project includes a whole bunch of centering. I find this to be a horrendous PITA with fractions. In fact that was the catalyst for this post. Now it is true I may have attended the School for the Mechanically Declined, but in this instance I see the beauty of the metric system. It IS simpler for myself to visualize moving a decimal than converting a fraction.

 
looks good so how do i get one? i am a tool junky and i think i need a fix. where should i get one?
 
Metric or Imperial, it doesn't matter to me, as long as I keep in mind which one I am currently using.  USA lumber and wood related drawings are usually in Imperial (English / American units.  What does matter is precision - of measurement and marking.  I have several tapes and find they are not consistent, even within the same brand!  The gradations of my Festool tape closely match those of my Stanley "Fat Max" and my Fastcap tapes apparently used a different reference standard.  So I find it important to use the same tape measure throughout any project that requires a bit of precision, e.g. furniture, finish trim carpentry.  Also, the end piece of many tape measures do not function well; the end piece in each of my FastCap tapes is riveted securely to the end of the steel tape and thus may be correct for outside measurements but is necessarily off calibration for any inside measurement by the thickness of the end piece.  This caused me many problems until I realized what was wrong with those tapes!  Better still is use of story sticks or other shopmade gauges/stops to ensure repeatability of measurements.  I find that furniture components that are supposed to be duplicates are much more closely matching in dimensions when such gauges/stops are used than any measuring device.  Use of a pencil and my eyeballs is not nearly as repeatable or accurate.

Dave R.
 
tallgrass said:
ok i have made my ideas know and i use both, but here it is and i would love to hear as it pertains too woodworking, is the millimeter as a unit that is small enough? I do not think a 16th of an inch is small enough. i often find that a mm is just too large unit and you can't have a half mm on a tape measure. i have been working on a project in which nothing  that had too be matched was exactly to a mm. and mm gap would not work.in the world of wood working i find i am frequently using 32 and 64ths. now before someone flips out this is not a political argument about which is best i am just find the mm  too large a unit when using a tape measure. thoughts?
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I wish I could even see anything smaller than a mm without my glasses :D :D and even more that I was skillful enough to make things to such tolerances.  Having said that, when measuring wood to put through the thicknesser I always grab a digital caliper - but I ignore the fractions/decimal points.  Do people here really manage to work wood to tolerances of less than a mm?  With changes in hygrometry here (there's a dehumidifier running permanently in the shop) I'm not sure what to think.  And when I buy sheet goods they often vary by at least a mm in thickness.
 
BlueMaxx said:
The way I was taught to mark those dreaded "in between" fractions was by the plus/minus method. If I am at the 16th mark I cut plus or minus that mark. I know some will be bellicose in their indignation at the thought of this.
Wood movement has always been ingrained (no pun intended ;D) in me. So being plus or minus either system is fine for me in MOST situations. Nothing is ever all inclusive. For the most part, depending on what I am cutting, machining tolerances are not that critical to me.
My present project includes a whole bunch of centering. I find this to be a horrendous PITA with fractions. In fact that was the catalyst for this post. Now it is true I may have attended the School for the Mechanically Declined, but in this instance I see the beauty of the metric system. It IS simpler for myself to visualize moving a decimal than converting a fraction.
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more. Anyone who insists on getting closer tolerances is clearly doing his woodwork for fun. I couldn't earn a living if all my joints were spot on. Actually, since I started wearing glasses full time, I realise just how poor my eyesight had become......old joints versus new ones (pre-glasses/post-glasses). The other thing is it makes me look more intelligent.......like my friend who wears them with plain glass!

Larry
 
Eli said:
Honestly, I've found that in making the switch, the largeness of the millimetre was more than equally offset by my previous dismal use of fractional measurement. Overall, I'd say my accuracy is greatly improved by removing fractional math, but then, I'm a math numpty, born a book nerd. I still hold the wood in place and mark it whenever I can, and then cut it three more times until it fits.

"5 inches and the big mark past 7/16ths plus 7 and 3/8ths inches = no clue. "
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I worked with Italian terrazzo finishers, and when reading the rule back to them, they would say in their accented english (that they learned in Kentucky), " Ah doan care abou the liddle ones, jus tell meh abou the BIG ones".  "Fractions" were measured off their thumbnail. 

I bet Tinker could add to this.
 
greg mann said:
Now, tell me, when you make your mark, fraction or metric, what do you use? A pencil? How sharp? How steady is your hand? Do you apply a little english to your effort? All of these things diminish your accuracy. At that point it's not about measuring, or shouldn't be. It's about transferring a size. That is what a story stick or Talmeter does for you.
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Great point, and where do you cut on that line?  RH side, LH side, dead on?  I always emphasized this with my students to be consistent with where they cut.  They'd carefully measure and cut in different spots and have boards all within 1/8" of each other...... or is that 3.175mm? ;)

Steve
 
I can't understand what all the fuss is about , in the UK Joiners , carpenters, cabinate makers use both !!! its not rocket science
if i make and fit a kitchen its all done in metric 1000mm ,800mm 600m 500mm base units and so on , most internal , extrenal doors and so on
are imperial 6'6" x 2'6" and so on, i would never even think of working a set of stairs out in imperial !! the key is forget m, cm, and just work in mm its small
enough to build a jewelry box and big enough to build a house ,
and 99% of the time you never need to convert from one to the other , and 0.5mm is a fanny hair over 1/64 its much much quicker to mark out to .5mm than 1/64 of a measurement in the real world , and those who say its not small enough have there head in the clouds
 
i moved to australia from ireland 12 years ago, having served my apprenticeship in ireland with the imperial system.
suddenly i found myself learning metric in ozland. took me about 3 days, and i have'nt looked back since.

i find i never talk about centimetres, i only talk in millimetres and metres, if i hear someone talk about centimetres, i assume they are DIYers. definetely not professionals.

i still call length of stud a "4x2", not "100x50", old habits die hard!

p.s. i never could understand why us irish people say "4x2", but americans say "2x4".
 
I grew up in NZ and have lived in the Uk since 13....mm all the way.... cant believe that people would convert from metric to inches ???

My uncle designs interiors for large yachts...50m plus yachts.....all of his designs...mm!

I tend to mark on the outside of my measurement and take the line when I cut. Have never really had the need to get more acurate than 0.5mm!

Piers
 
If my relationship develops as planned, I will go to the US from Holland in the next year permanently. I will take with me my metric stuff. Then there will be one more metric person in the US. I will declare my future workshop metric only. I will also try to convert as many persons as possible to the metric system  ;)
I hope to show them you can make nice things from wood also in millimeters and meters.
 
Tallgrass:
Talmeters are the stuff. The story stick function is very handy and marking up is easy too. I have two black ones, a green and a red one. The black ones are used on a daily basis and hold up well for daily use and abuse.

On page three on this thread (scroll down the linked page) you have all the Talmeter sizes in a group photo.
I have them all, except the blue one, which I gave to a forum member. :)

http://festoolownersgroup.com/index.php?topic=2681.msg34125#msg34125

My favourite is the black one, which is very sturdy though it does not measure diameter and if you look at the wrong color code (internal/external) you might end up cutting a workpiece 10cm short... ...yup, done that, but not anymore. ;)

 
For most applications I think 0.5mm is sufficient. Wood moves, some move a lot some hardly at all. Sometimes a supertight fit doesn't work well when wood moves about and sometimes you want it "airtight". When cutting up small stuff they are usually (hopefully/usually that is) right on the money and piled up you can't feel the size difference with your fingertips. That is usually a bit smaller than .5mm anyway, though I do have delicate hands.  ;)

For bigger stuff I find that .5mm will suffice and within margin of final adjustments after assembly.

If I would do inlay work I'd have to stop drinking coffee, start reading the morning paper with my fingertips and get down to that 1/10th of a mm and stalk Nickao but until then I am good with either "spot on" or a deviation of UP TO a half a mm on delicate work. 

 
Yes when an inlay is new even if you know it will gap it has to be tight and I would say flush 0.0 mm apart. After that the client is on their own. If it moves before I get it boxed I always fix it. Kind of makes you move faster though.
 
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