going metric

[wnagle]

I think I must have a micron wave oven... shrinks a domino form metric to imperial...really!

 

[nickao]

The best system is the system the craftsman is most comfortable with.

How anyone can say metric is easier to use or vice versa is ridiculous, it is an individuals opinion on what is simpler for them.

My grandpa used imperial all his life, do you really think learning metric at 93 would have been simpler for him? Actually, correct or not and really nothing to do with woodworking or ease of use, he equated using Imperial as being American. To his generation that was very important. So I doubt he would ever have admitted it was simpler for him, even if it was.

Having used both systems almost all of my life and being fully conversent with both (and I can even do arithmetic with fractions  ;D), I can say it and not be riduiculous.  What is riduculous is the verty few countries in the world that are sticking all or in part with Imperial. 

Perhaps you have a point with your 93 year old gradndfather but, even then, the mental stimualtion would probably been good for him. 

If you want to equate using an antiquated and inefficient British system with being American, then go ahead and do so -but it seems to me (as an outsider) to be almost unAmerican.

Well I did not say I personally equate it to being American, but many older people may.

I still do not see how you can tell someone what is simpler for them, you are not in their head.

 

[Nespresso]

I use the Festools metric/imperial tape.  I use the scale that fits the project.  At times, I find the metric to be more precise and easier to remember, no more 10 5/8 long or short.  I use the metric side a get a real number.  So I go both ways.

 

[pingvinlakrits]

...metric you can divide any which way you want, and easy it is.

What I don't get is the usage of 1/64th of an inch, how do you write out 3/64 of an inch? Too complicated.
Instead of 1/64th of an inch, which isn't a real number you know by heart - just an increment - you can divide, add and multiply mm's and get an actual number (just like nespresso says) you can use just the way you can calculate all other things in life. I feel inches are less flexible with other measurements where as the metric is more allround.

We don't say 1/10th of a metre when we measure up things, we just say the actual number: 100mm, or 10cm. If you want precision you can go as low (or fine) as you want, half a millimeter is not a problem - who says it is.

You measure 2140mm and it is just that, or whatever you want it to be: 2.14m, 214cm easy peasy. Not fiftytwo inches and 1/64th gobbledygoop - but hey, to each his own.  Just trying to make life easier for you by joining us on the bright side of things. 

 

[soggycrow]

Either way is fine with me.

 

[pingvinlakrits]

I envy those who can use both, I would not get by as a carpenter in the US since I am clueless to the ".

I can look things up and do the math but it isn't second nature to me and when people say I ripped a 2x4" it doesn't mean that much to me.  ??? I just think "pagans" and continue to live in bliss, like some other metric ignorants. 

 

[Red Lion]

I envy those who can use both, I would not get by as a carpenter in the US since I am clueless to the ".

I can look things up and do the math but it isn't second nature to me and when people say I ripped a 2x4" it doesn't mean that much to me.  ??? I just think "pagans" and continue to live in bliss, like some other metric ignorants. 

lol - pagans.

 

[peter halle]

This post reminds me of a traffic accident my father had.  My father was German and out of frugality and habit would save any left over beer from the previous night.  Also as a German born in 1917 he felt that drinking beer in the morning - usually the leftovers - was ok.  Well one day he took the 1979 Chevy with the 93 horsepower engine out to go the the local library to get a book.  He wasn't paying attention and ran a stop sign.  Stuck the nose of the car under a Blazer going perpendicular and flipped it.  Police showed up and smelled beer on his breath.  Asked him to recite the alphabet backwords.

My brothers responded to the calls for them to come to the scene.  When asked the police officer stated that although my father appeared shook up and he smelled like beer, he didn't seeem to be under influence, but he kept messing up on his alphabet.  My brother explained that he was German and he would always think first in his original language.  He suggested that he ask him to recite in German and listen for the umlat (makes 27 charaters in german alphabet).  The cop couldn't understand German but he could count.  Dad went home rather tthan o jail.

Dad could speak 5 languages fluently but always thought first in German and then translated.  Some people will make the change over to metric easier than others.  I force myself to try to do everyother project metric.  I'll Keep trying.

Good luck.

Peter

 

[jaegerhund]

. Sheets are still sold in 2,44x1,22 meter plates (4x8) and I could go on

Somehow I like the sight and sound of 4x8 over 2.44x1.22 ------- it seems to roll off the tongue (and glint off the eyes) better  ----

Why do European (and maybe elsewhere) sheet sizes reflect traditional imperial dimensions? Is most of the material imported from the U.S.? What's the deal here?  Otherwise, I guess you could have more user-friendly dimensions like 3x2 (meter) sheet sizes.

Justin

 

[pingvinlakrits]

. Sheets are still sold in 2,44x1,22 meter plates (4x8) and I could go on

Somehow I like the sight and sound of 4x8 over 2.44x1.22 ------- it seems to roll off the tongue (and glint off the eyes) better  ----

Why do European (and maybe elsewhere) sheet sizes reflect traditional imperial dimensions? Is most of the material imported from the U.S.? What's the deal here?  Otherwise, I guess you could have more user-friendly dimensions like 3x2 (meter) sheet sizes.

Justin

I think the deal is that the sizes for the raw material was (is) well known for sheet material so they didn't round it off for the metric - the craftsmen would probably have been grumpy if they did. But that was then, I too would prefer something like 2.5x1.25, same size ratio or something like an even 240x120. Today I will be carrying a lot of 244x122x22 wishing they were helium filled 24x12x2's.

 

[jaegerhund]

Thanks for the reply Henrik --- I guess it would be beneficial to keep that ratio so scratch the 3x2  --- but I think my point was understood ----- but anywaysssssssssss, , I don't think I'll be picking up any 2.44x1.22's anytime soon (yeah give me some of those 244x122's ---- actually that has a nice ring to it )

Justin

 

[johnsonri]

I think that metric is easier to work with. Since I grew up with imperial, that is what I mainly use. I was in grade school in the mid eighties and I remember the teachers stressing that by 1990, inches would not be used anywhere in the US 

My projects are measured with unreduced fractions in either 32nds or 64ths, depending on the precision needed for the project.

For example, 4 4/64 would be a measurement used. So, if I needed to add to of those together, I'd be looking at 4 4/64 + 4 4/64 = 8 8/64 as the target.

Keeping the same denominator keeps the math very very simple and since almost all of my measureing devices are ticked at 32nds or 64ths (mostly Incra stuff), layout and measurement with fractions is very very straight forward.

I always tell myself that I will one day convert to metric, but I sometimes suspect that the day will never come. 

 

[John Langevin]

Why don't we just use decimal inches like we do in machining?

 

[tallgrass]

well, if we did that, than you would not be able to look down your nose at some one for not using the metric system. I have tended to find that there is a ideology that goes with the chosen measuring system. in the Imperial system you can choose what ever way of breaking up your base unit, so that what ever your situation, you can define your sub units how ever need. In the metric system you must use it the way that is commanded you also must maintain the appropriate nose to floor angle. As i have said in the past i use both and do not really care, but i due find the idea that the metric system is some how superior. i will argue that easier does not mean better, better is better, the major strike in my book in dealing with the metric system is that it can not really deal with simple geometric realities,,,,, that is a problem.

 

[Wim]

I'm from Holland and being raised in the metric world, I even dream in metric units  ;D. During my education I had also to learn to calculate in imperial units.
I believe it is not a matter of what system is better or easier. With sufficient experience, you can do your calculations in every system. If needed in a binary system with only zero's (0) and ones (1). The problem to make the step in either direction is the mental picture one has of dimensions. You need a "feel" for dimensions.
I was a month in the USA and when I saw the signs along the streets with distances in miles, I made quick calculations (multiply by 1.5 and round to a higher value) to have any idea of distance. Being a biker, I also think of 1 hour to go with 15 km (or 10 mile), or a hour on motorbike for every 100 km (65 mile).
So, because even the English left their imperial system for their currency, it is just a matter of getting used to it. They only have to start using Euro's and driving at the right-hand side of the road to become "normal"  ;D
The Americans have obviously no difficulties with decimal calculations in dollars (managing money is another matter), so the step in metric dimensions will not be a big one.

 

[nickao]

Why don't we just use decimal inches like we do in machining?

I think many do John(I do), but that is technically imperial.

 

[Peterm]

So, because even the English left their imperial system for their currency, it is just a matter of getting used to it.

FWIW Britain ditched 'imperial' currency (pounds, shillings and pence) and 'went decimal' in 1971...

They only have to start using Euro's and driving at the right-hand side of the road to become "normal"  ;D

No, it'll never happen, lol  ;D

cheers, Pete

 

[pingvinlakrits]

well, if we did that, than you would not be able to look down your nose at some one for not using the metric system. I have tended to find that there is a ideology that goes with the chosen measuring system. in the Imperial system you can choose what ever way of breaking up your base unit, so that what ever your situation, you can define your sub units how ever need. In the metric system you must use it the way that is commanded you also must maintain the appropriate nose to floor angle. As i have said in the past i use both and do not really care, but i due find the idea that the metric system is some how superior. i will argue that easier does not mean better, better is better, the major strike in my book in dealing with the metric system is that it can not really deal with simple geometric realities,,,,, that is a problem.

Well, I have to object, if you cannot deal with simple geometric realities using the metric system you are simply put, not proficient enough in using it. When using metric volume in combination with metric lengths which has the same prefix modifiers it is a breeze calculating pretty much everything. I build loudspeakers from time to time and calculating volume/size is something you learn to do from the top of your head pretty swift.

I don't mind people using Imperial, at all, it is just that the US is more or less left alone sticking with THEIR version of the Imperial - when everyone else has been smart enough to conform to the metric - which is the Global standard. If you are dealing with companies abroad they grind their teeth on having to deal with stubborn US and English measurements for volumes that are not even cross compatible: se snippet below which I found worth a read:

"Metric is inevitable. Not only is it simpler, more understandable (assuming no previous knowledge of either system), and already defacto anywhere precision counts; it's also the only real standard. The US system is ironically termed "standard", but usually referred to as "english". The British system is "imperial", and doesn't match "english". So with the Americans using English, and the English using Imperial, we're already off to a flying start without even touching on numbers.

Ever see an englishman in an american bar, with a dejected look on his face? Any brit will happily tell you a pint is 20 fluid ounces. And the (american) bartender will tell him it's 16. Just to add to the confusion, the american and british fluid ounces differ (by a small amount). So the difference between the american 16 ounces and the british 20 ounces isn't 4 ounces. (3.2 US or 3.3 british ounces for the curious)

Nit-picky, but it scales. This difference makes a british gallon 4.54 litres, and a US one 3.78 litres. A 20% difference that can quickly cause issues.

And the solution to this confusion? Almost everyone else is already using it.  [the Metric]"

The US, Liberia and Burma have yet to convert to metric, looks like you are pretty alone on that take. (Burma uses English Imperial, which has been phased out in the UK over a longer period and again, is not cross compatible with US Standard) I can understand that converting the US into metric would cost. Like a lot. But, many aspects and most of the scientific (and military) institutions already work in metric. The car industries bolts and fasteners are metric, conversion starting in 1978, tires are metric, but rims are Imperial. A lot of the industries are retooled to metric but when it comes to the old recipes and cup measurements that WOULD take a generation or two to change...

On of the very lame arguments against metric is this one:

"We order donuts by the dozen, not 1.2 dekadonuts."  : ...to which the reply was:
"Well I order donuts by the dozen too when I lived in a metric country, why would there be a need to use decimals at all? Dozen is a specific quantity, it is not a weight amount or a measurement in that sense."

I think thoughts like "I can't order by the dozen anymore if I go metric" is one of the misgivings that are deeply roted. It is just when you would like half a donut that you need to break it down.

 

[mastercabman]

well, if we did that, than you would not be able to look down your nose at some one for not using the metric system. I have tended to find that there is a ideology that goes with the chosen measuring system. in the Imperial system you can choose what ever way of breaking up your base unit, so that what ever your situation, you can define your sub units how ever need. In the metric system you must use it the way that is commanded you also must maintain the appropriate nose to floor angle. As i have said in the past i use both and do not really care, but i due find the idea that the metric system is some how superior. i will argue that easier does not mean better, better is better, the major strike in my book in dealing with the metric system is that it can not really deal with simple geometric realities,,,,, that is a problem.

Well, I have to object, if you cannot deal with simple geometric realities using the metric system you are simply put, not proficient enough in using it. When using metric volume in combination with metric lengths which has the same prefix modifiers it is a breeze calculating pretty much everything. I build loudspeakers from time to time and calculating volume/size is something you learn to do from the top of your head pretty swift.

I don't mind people using Imperial, at all, it is just that the US is more or less left alone sticking with THEIR version of the Imperial - when everyone else has been smart enough to conform to the metric - which is the Global standard. If you are dealing with companies abroad they grind their teeth on having to deal with stubborn US and English measurements for volumes that are not even cross compatible: se snippet below which I found worth a read:

"Metric is inevitable. Not only is it simpler, more understandable (assuming no previous knowledge of either system), and already defacto anywhere precision counts; it's also the only real standard. The US system is ironically termed "standard", but usually referred to as "english". The British system is "imperial", and doesn't match "english". So with the Americans using English, and the English using Imperial, we're already off to a flying start without even touching on numbers.

Ever see an englishman in an american bar, with a dejected look on his face? Any brit will happily tell you a pint is 20 fluid ounces. And the (american) bartender will tell him it's 16. Just to add to the confusion, the american and british fluid ounces differ (by a small amount). So the difference between the american 16 ounces and the british 20 ounces isn't 4 ounces. (3.2 US or 3.3 british ounces for the curious)

Nit-picky, but it scales. This difference makes a british gallon 4.54 litres, and a US one 3.78 litres. A 20% difference that can quickly cause issues.

And the solution to this confusion? Almost everyone else is already using it.  [the Metric]"

The US, Liberia and Burma have yet to convert to metric, looks like you are pretty alone on that take. (Burma uses English Imperial, which has been phased out in the UK over a longer period and again, is not cross compatible with US Standard) I can understand that converting the US into metric would cost. Like a lot. But, many aspects and most of the scientific (and military) institutions already work in metric. The car industries bolts and fasteners are metric, conversion starting in 1978, tires are metric, but rims are Imperial. A lot of the industries are retooled to metric but when it comes to the old recipes and cup measurements that WOULD take a generation or two to change...

On of the very lame arguments against metric is this one:

"We order donuts by the dozen, not 1.2 dekadonuts."  : ...to which the reply was:
"Well I order donuts by the dozen too when I lived in a metric country, why would there be a need to use decimals at all? Dozen is a specific quantity, it is not a weight amount or a measurement in that sense."

I think thoughts like "I can't order by the dozen anymore if I go metric" is one of the misgivings that are deeply roted. It is just when you would like half a donut that you need to break it down.

I was about to say something like this!!!    LOL

 

[nickao]

I still say my projects look the same whether I use metric or imperial so who the heck cares.

Being in American it is my right to use whatever I like. If there was a proposal to change to metric and a vote was taken sorry I would vote to keep it the way it is, for no other reason than to give guys in the other countries something to talk about. I mean we would not be having this pointless thread to read.

Both systems work and both have their drawbacks.

Many here are confusing decimal with fraction use and many of the Imperial guys are banging their head against the wall trying to say "hey fractions are more exact then using repeating decimals that need be rounded", though in the real world it does not matter. Fractions and analogue are more accurate, that is not an issue. Decimal representations can leave out information, the reason super high end audiophiles still listen to analog recordings claiming digital is missing something, though I can not hear the difference technically they are correct.

Decimal vs fraction use is really a different issue than the Metric vs Imperial measuring systems. I guess one can still say 1/3 a liter, but that is still metric.

I do like to use the decimal inch measurements my self as most of my fine measuring tools are set up that way. SO I get the ease of decimal and still use my imperial. Almost every argument I have heard for Metric is really saying that the decimal system and not the actual METRIC system of weights etc t is better and simpler to use. Like I said we can use fractional representation in Metric if we wanted to. I hear metric guys say of about 1/2 a meter etc.

In the real world both decimal and fractions crossover metric and imperial systems everyday. So when arguing one over the other keep it separate. I will keep to .001 and inch etc, you can use whatever you want.

Here is an article form Sherline that basically says why I like to use an inch unit and also gives hints for using and purchasing fine metric or imperial measuring devices, in both systems decimal is used.

Simply Metric does not break down as neatly as Imperial Decimal Inch measurements(which is the Imperial guys point) as explained in this article:

http://www.sherline.com/inchmetr.htm