GRK or Star Drive Cabinet Hardware Screws

All,
There were two specifics behind my original request.  First, while it does not happen much on shorter screws I hate cam out.  Hate it so much I am basically moving away from Phillips.  Second the closer I get to all star head the more often I can use the Centrotec star bits I carry on my side and the less often I have to go to my sysport/installers kit for a Phillips bit. 

Thanks for input and suggestions.  There are some better options in this thread than I have been using. 

PS - glad to know I am not the only one that is not a fan of Phillips head screws!!
 
I just finished re-decking the stair landing in the back of my house. All the screws were star bits.  One brand used a small bit (color coded “red”), the other brand used a larger bit (color coded “green”).

All of the screws had at least a few cam outs.  Mostly, I take the blame for.  I might not have been holding the driver in perfect alignment. 

The screws that used the larger bits were more reliable.

The screws that used the smaller bit did not fit any of the color coded bits well.  It did come with its own bit.  Is it possible they are using a proprietary drive?  It makes no sense to me.

It was a tiny job 3-1/2 feet x 5 feet.  So I just worked my way through it.  I was using 3”screws and pilot holes through the 1-1/4” decking.  So driving in 2-3/4”.  Maybe I should have used shorter screws.

In the past, I have used drivers with a retracting barrel sleeve.  Maybe I should have been using that.  It would guarantee more accurate alignment.
 
Packard said:
I just finished re-decking the stair landing in the back of my house. All the screws were star bits.  One brand used a small bit (color coded “red”), the other brand used a larger bit (color coded “green”).

All of the screws had at least a few cam outs.  Mostly, I take the blame for.  I might not have been holding the driver in perfect alignment. 

The screws that used the larger bits were more reliable.

The screws that used the smaller bit did not fit any of the color coded bits well.  It did come with its own bit.  Is it possible they are using a proprietary drive? It makes no sense to me.

It was a tiny job 3-1/2 feet x 5 feet.  So I just worked my way through it.  I was using 3”screws and pilot holes through the 1-1/4” decking.  So driving in 2-3/4”.  Maybe I should have used shorter screws.

In the past, I have used drivers with a retracting barrel sleeve.  Maybe I should have been using that.  It would guarantee more accurate alignment.

I'm not sure which screw manufacturer but one of them (at least) uses modified Torx bits that have a raised circle on the center of the bit. It does work better with those screws than standard Torx.
 
SoonerFan said:
PS - glad to know I am not the only one that is not a fan of Phillips head screws!!

We were railroaded into using them when there was very little choice other than straight slot or Robertson drive but now they continue to be used for a purpose they were not designed for. I have thousands of Phillips drive, they are cheap and easy to buy in quantity and knowing the issues they present I use good quality drive bits and some care and they do the job. They only came into widespread use when cordless drivers became common and it was then that other driver forms were developed. I don't think blaming the Phillips drive form for our bad choice is fair but that is just me.

I would like to change over as well but I can't bring myself to throw out thousands of screws to tell the truth and the cost in Oz of fasteners would make it a very expensive exercise. I tried Robertson years ago but the availability and expense due to a single supplier was prohibitive unfortunately and yes they also cam out as well but less so.
 
Mini Me said:
SoonerFan said:
PS - glad to know I am not the only one that is not a fan of Phillips head screws!!

We were railroaded into using them when there was very little choice other than straight slot or Robertson drive but now they continue to be used for a purpose they were not designed for. I have thousands of Phillips drive, they are cheap and easy to buy in quantity and knowing the issues they present I use good quality drive bits and some care and they do the job. They only came into widespread use when cordless drivers became common and it was then that other driver forms were developed. I don't think blaming the Phillips drive form for our bad choice is fair but that is just me.

I would like to change over as well but I can't bring myself to throw out thousands of screws to tell the truth and the cost in Oz of fasteners would make it a very expensive exercise. I tried Robertson years ago but the availability and expense due to a single supplier was prohibitive unfortunately and yes they also cam out as well but less so.

My change over has been gradual.  When I need new screws of a certain size/length/type I look for star drive options.  I seem to buy GRKs a lot these days.  I am very happy with these screws and find the Centrotec torx bits drive these just fine.  But as you mentioned, these are expensive. 
 
For over 40 years I've cussed & cursed the screws that were available for construction purposes. I've used them all but the Torx versions will reduce the cam-outs to an insignificant amount. I've probably driven from 5000 to 10,000 Torx screws over the last 40 years and I've only destroyed one because I decided not to chip out the concrete that was imbedded in the Torx recess. I lazily just jammed the Torx driver into the cement filled drive recess and I suffered the results...a rounded out Torx driver and Torx screw. Who'd have thunk cement was so nasty.  [smile]

If you're rounding out Torx screws or Torx drivers, I'd suggest you look at your technique.
 
I checked the screws I used for the stair landing.  There were the TORX screws, which had “coated for exterior use” finish and “Suitable for pressure treated lumber”.  The TORX screws had a small star bit included that fit snuggly.  The yellow coded bits I had were too small, and the red coded were a “fit” but significantly looser than the supplied bit. 

The Deckmate screws used a larger (coded green) bit.  The larger bit seemed to do a better job, but perhaps the paint-like finish provided some lubricity.  They seemed to driver easier.

My bigger knock against the TORX was the applied finish.  Labeled “coated for exterior use” and “suitable for use with pressure treated lumber”.  The finish, which was a dull gray, appears to be impact plated with zinc.  If the same process is used in thicker coating it would qualify for “cold galvanizing”.

Impact plating and cold galvanizing offer significant attractions for manufacturers.  The process includes pre-cleaning the parts to be coated, and then putting the parts along with small zinc pellets in a tumbling barrel.  The parts are then tumbled and the zinc sticks to the parts much like cooked spaghetti sticks to the wall.  It is a strictly mechanical bond.  The big advantage to manufacturers is that it does not require all the EPA compliance equipment (which can cost over a million dollars) that zinc plating needs, nor the high energy costs that hot-dipped galvanizing requires.

On the minus side, the strictly mechanical bond is not so strong.  On cold galvanized nails, the zinc on the face of the nail is usually flaked off with the first strike of the hammer.  I did not see any flaking on the screws.  Of course I did not really inspect the interior of the star socket, nor the condition of the threads after driving.

Neither manufacturer called out the actual finish.  Which alerts my sneaky-marketing-department-antennae.

Of the two coatings, I would prefer the organic (painted) coating.  Most of those finishes bond at the molecular level and have better adhesion than impact plating.

As an aside, never use cold galvanized nails. They are not the equal of hot dipped galvanized. 

And very heavy coating of electro-zinc plating also tend to have flaking issue.

Most fasteners we see with zinc plating have “commercial zinc”, which is “nominal 0.0003” thick, called out as “three tenths of a thousandth” or just “three tenths” thick. 

The nominal” part means that they are plating until the entire part has zinc coating, which means much of the part is at 0.0003”, but the hard to reach parts may have significantly less.

There are specs (mostly military) that call out “0.0003” minimum” or “0.0005” minimum”, but you will not likely come across this with commercially available hardware.

 
Cheese said:
If you're rounding out Torx screws or Torx drivers, I'd suggest you look at your technique.

It's the same for Robertson. If you have cam outs, it's bad technique or a cheap junk bit.
I have seen bad ones both ways; either purely straight sides (no taper) or the taper is too big (they don't seat properly)
Festool and Makita are the best I have seen. Milwaukee has a tendency to be too big. They work, but benefit from a few strokes of a diamond stone. Too big is fixable, but you shouldn't have to.

 
Cheese said:
If you're rounding out Torx screws or Torx drivers, I'd suggest you look at your technique.

It could be the wrong form of Torx driver between Torx and Torx Plus which is a very common mistake.

 
Crazyraceguy said:
It's the same for Robertson. If you have cam outs, it's bad technique or a cheap junk bit.
I have seen bad ones both ways; either purely straight sides (no taper) or the taper is too big (they don't seat properly)
Festool and Makita are the best I have seen. Milwaukee has a tendency to be too big. They work, but benefit from a few strokes of a diamond stone. Too big is fixable, but you shouldn't have to.

I'm not so sure... the Robertson will cam-out because there's a taper on the internal screw drive and a taper on the exterior of the driver. They produce the screws and the driver bits with tapers so that the driver is easier to insert into the fastener head. It's just a convenience thing which is exactly the incorrect reason for producing the fastener head and the driver. This should not be about convenience it should be about fully seating fasteners without stripping out the heads or the drivers. This highlights the difference between DIY Robertson use and professional Torx use.

I've installed many decks using cedar, redwood & treated which all require stainless fasteners. Robertson drives used on stainless screws were the most abysmal combination you could dream of. Stainless is basically a pretty soft material to begin with but when combined with the hardened Robertson drives, it's just a hot mess.

I was a huge Robertson fan before Torx was released because they were the only ball game at the time. But once the Torx offerings were released that became a no-brainer. 
 
Ultimate Tools Rep said:
Check out U2 Fasteners. Here's their catalog.

Those look like a GRK clone. If those #6 are actually available I am interested!

Seth
 
live4ever said:
Apparently U2[fasteners] is led by the former founder of GRK.

Now that makes sense... [smile] ...the tip off was the Top Star™ Adjustable Shim Screws for door jambs, I don't know of anyone that makes those except GRK.

I really like GRK but over the years they keep reducing the sizes that are available. They also used to offer a lot more stainless varieties which was nice.
 
Cheese said:
I'm not so sure... the Robertson will cam-out because there's a taper on the internal screw drive and a taper on the exterior of the driver. They produce the screws and the driver bits with tapers so that the driver is easier to insert into the fastener head. It's just a convenience thing which is exactly the incorrect reason for producing the fastener head and the driver. This should not be about convenience it should be about fully seating fasteners without stripping out the heads or the drivers. This highlights the difference between DIY Robertson use and professional Torx use.

I've installed many decks using cedar, redwood & treated which all require stainless fasteners. Robertson drives used on stainless screws were the most abysmal combination you could dream of. Stainless is basically a pretty soft material to begin with but when combined with the hardened Robertson drives, it's just a hot mess.

I was a huge Robertson fan before Torx was released because they were the only ball game at the time. But once the Torx offerings were released that became a no-brainer.

Robertson and an impact driver are an unstoppable combination. The impacting can actually force the tapers together to the point of stickiness, which is why I don't like insert bits with them.

Stainless is a completely different issue. In general, I hate stainless fasteners, of any kind. Even old-fashioned hex bolts will round-over too easily. Good use-case for 6-point sockets, for sure. Then you have the galling factor. Stainless nuts on stainless bolts requires care. Jamming that together, in a careless manor will cost you.
Stainless with Allen has always been an issue too. It's just too soft.
I think I'd rather take a beating than to drive stainless screws with Phillips heads.....

With all of this, I am referring to assembly type screws. It's completely different when you get into "hardware", drawer pulls, hinges etc.
 
At least no one said anything good about drywall screws. That was grist for another online forum.
 
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