Guide Stop Use on Other Router (w/guide rail)??????

[iggy07]

Maybe I'm missing something here. I really like Festools, and the OF 1400 is (tentatively) on my short list. But I keep hearing, over and over, all the things that I would expect it to do, in concert with the 'Festool system', that are clearly not working.

The base I made measures just under .20 inches thick.  My home-made base works well with the router riding on the work surface.  The Festool base measures .12 inches thick.  I have not tried it in place of my base.  Maybe someone else has actually used the Festool base, and will chime in here.

Given the expense of these items, why should we be required to fabricate baseplates to make these pieces work together. In many cases, the fabrications are quite simple, but in many cases, they are easy for someone with a great deal of experience, and a complete shop. But for those of us that are newcomers, these modifications are at least as daunting as the new piece of woodworking would be. In fact, we are buying Festools for exactly this reason.

I KNOW I don't know what I'm doing, so I'm willing to spend extra $$($$) to compensate. The last thing I want to do is have to re-build or re-design the very tools that I am buying to make my life easier.

I don't mind building jigs, for example to create sliding dovetails. But I want be working on the wood, not on re-building the tool. 

The same comments seem to apply to the angle guide that attaches to the guide rail. Am I being too critical?

e.g.

 

[Mark]

The one thing that I found out about using the guiderail + outrigger is that you have to make sure that the router face is parallel with the material face. I did some dadoes that required more than one pass and wondered why my dado bottoms weren't flat. Well the router and material faces weren't parallel to each other even with the outrigger down. Here is a video from Finewoodworking that shows how Pat Warner makes dadoes which could be done with the MFS. (http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/subscription/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=5185) This seems foolproof as you are referencing off of the actual material. I kind of wish you could hinge the MFS to the MFT for a dado jig so that you could just lift the MFS up and move the material over to the next groove.

 

[Daviddubya]

...Given the expense of these items, why should we be required to fabricate baseplates to make these pieces work together...

Iggy - The auxillary base is NOT required.  The OF1400 works well riding on the guide rail and using the outrigger foot provided on the router.  I simply find that I like having the router ride on the work surface, not needing to use the outrigger foot.  I think the stability of the router is better when riding on the work surface.  Not everyone agrees with my view - some folks say the stability is just as good when riding on the rail and the outrigger in place.  The base I made is an alternative, not a necessity.

 

[Brad Evans]

...Given the expense of these items, why should we be required to fabricate baseplates to make these pieces work together...

Iggy - The auxillary base is NOT required.  The OF1400 works well riding on the guide rail and using the outrigger foot provided on the router.  I simply find that I like having the router ride on the work surface, not needing to use the outrigger foot.  I thonk the stability of the router is better when riding on the work surface.  Not everyone agrees with my view - some folks say the stability is just as good when riding on the rail and the outrigger in place.  The base I made is an alternative, not a necessity.

I'm also in the camp that stability is better off the rail. 

That's the way I use my OF1000. Fortunately, with that router the offset is such that a thicker base is not needed.  But, the bad news, is if the microadjuster is used, the green adjustment dial is too big in diameter and hits the rail lifting the router off your work - requiring using the foot. Sigh... 

Brad

 

[extiger]

I just got off the phone with the nice folks at Micro-Fence. They have an interesting adaptation mating their absolutely top-grade fence and the Festool Guide Rail. For $399. Of added incentive to me, is that for an additional $100, I could buy an interface kit, allowing a second router (ie a DeWalt 625) to mate with the fence.

Their package for the Festool Guide Rail includes a customized sub-base. It will fit most routers, but the user has to drill the mounting holes. That certainly skirts the modification David fabricated.

I face a dilemma. Is it worth it to me to spend $500 go link up two routers to the Guide Rail, or should I settle for the inconveniences of using only the Stop Guide (for less than $100) and forego employing my 3 1/4 HP router as well?

Gary Curtis

 

[Eli]

Can you write it off? ;D

 

[Daviddubya]

...I face a dilemma. Is it worth it to me to spend $500 go link up two routers to the Guide Rail, or should I settle for the inconveniences of using only the Stop Guide (for less than $100) and forego employing my 3 1/4 HP router as well?

Gary Curtis

Seems like a no-brainer to me.  If you are willing to spend $500 for guide rail accessories, why not spend about the same and get a Festool OF1400 router and Guide Stop???  Based on my own experience, you will be much happier leaving your Milwaukee router in the table, and having a second high-quality router for hand-held (dado) work.

BTW, the base I made took about 30 minutes using scrap hardboard and Formica.  I have spent more time reading and writing in this thread than it took to make several copies of the base.  I made some to share with my friends that also have OF1400 routers.  No, I don't have any left over.  Smile.

 

[Dave Rudy]

I face a dilemma. Is it worth it to me to spend $500 go link up two routers to the Guide Rail, or should I settle for the inconveniences of using only the Stop Guide (for less than $100) and forego employing my 3 1/4 HP router as well?
Gary Curtis

I have the decision whether to get the micro-fence setup for a while.  Micro fence makes Festool-quality stuff.  It is not cheap, but its performance and machining tolerances are second to none.  The Festool micro-adjuster works fine, but is not designed for the DeWalt.

How many times do you need two routers on the rail?

With a shop-made adapter you can use the micro-adjuster on the dewalt -- you just have to adapt the distance between the guide rods (and probably their diameter).  You could adapt the dewalt to the Festool guide rods or adapt the micro-adjust to the DeWalt.

It's just the same old question -- time and skill vs money.

The Festool adjuster works fine for the Festool routers.  If you have neither, why not analyze how often you need both and if rarely, try the Festool adjuster.  You can get your money back within 30 days if you dont like it.

 

[extiger]

Dave R., it would clear matters up immensely if I only knew what sorts of woodworking I'll be doing. I'm still in the mode of building and outfitting my shop, and I lack experience. I am partial to the Milwaukee because of the ergonomics of the BodyGrip. You are right, I could just leave that router in the router table and buy the Festool OF 1400 for the cost of adapting a Micro Edge to that router and the Festo Guide rail.

Not knowing better, my thoughts were that I might someday want to use my more powerful DeWalt 625 in the same configuration using the rail. At the moment, it is doing duty in my WoodRat. That's where I perceive most of the heavy routing being needed. Perhaps I'll never need a 3.25 hp router freehand with a guide rail. I just don't know, but was trying to cover all bets.

Analyzing costs, it does seem a slight advantage to chuck all these 'tricky-dicky' adaptations and simply buy the Festool router and Stop Guide. I would gain dust collection, but I'm touchy about adding more boxes (even if they are Systainers) and machinery to my shop. I like it lean.  And I like the idea of the Milwaukee doing double duty. As I said at the beginning of this post, the only freehand routing I anticipate is cutting Dados. And the Guide Rail seems to offer clear advantages doing that task.

And now, where did I put that phone number to the "Astrology Hotline"? Perhaps the stars can resolve this puzzle.

Gary

 

[BarryL]

Hi Gary

Here's what I think.  Sounds like you will spend the money...at least 500.00.  I too have a woodrat and like leaving my 625 router set up with it.  There are some cool things you can do with it as I am sure you know.  I am not sure if I missed it or not...but do you have a router table?  You mentioned that you had intentions of putting the milwaukee in one but wasn't sure if you did.  I think I would do just that....and leave it there with a good lift.  AND THEN....I would definitely go with the OF1400 for hand routing and guided rail use with the Festool specific accessories.  This is the route I took...I have the Porter Cable beast (7518 I think) in a Bench Dog router table with a Pro-Lift (Wish I had the digital lift...from Jointech I think)...then I have the same Woodrat setup as you....and recently just got the OF1400 and guide stop.  I like the dust collection with the 1400 as well as other sleek features.  I will be getting the MFS system soon and will use the 1400 exclusively for all of that type work.  I like this type of setup for the reason of not having to change a lot of setup.  One of the things I think you should consider while you are putting your shop together is efficiency....to the MAX.  If you can build that into it...do it...if you can buy that into it...buy it.  This way I think you can focus more on creativity rather than spending a lot of time on setting up for one thing...only to tear it all down to set up for another. 

You mention that you want to stay lean...have you considered putting your router in your TS?  ...or maybe in your outfeed table? 

 

[Dave Rudy]

Agreed, Barry.  And one measure of tool efficiency is this -- not having to buy multiple tools/adapters/systems only to find that they all just miss the mark.  A different way of saying this is if I could take up all the multiple purchases of other tools and add-ons and replace each with the appropriate Festool, I would have saved an incredible amount of money.

The 1400 with guide rail is a sweet and well-engineered combination.  You will not have to replace either because you should have bought the bigger (better, another) model to begin with.

 

[extiger]

The Milwaukee was intended primarily for router table service. I am in the process of installing it in my tablesaw extension. The Milwaukee adjusts from above the table, so there's no need for a lift. The process of acquiring tools and machines has grown tiresome.

But in fabricating benches and storage in the shop, I'm learning most of the processes for ww. At least that's the theory. On some of this stuff I need the shop to get everything going, and my workflow gets stalled out because storage and organization haven't been achieved. I really hate clutter, so I'm real cautious about acquiring lots of stuff. I would prefer to use the Milwaukee 5616 in the table and for hand work as well. To save money, and minimize tool storage.

As with most questions like this, the answers I get on forums don't make sense immediately. But within a week, light bulbs start going off in my head and I realize what is to be done.

thanks again for your input.

Gary C.

 

[Daviddubya]

...I would prefer to use the Milwaukee 5616 in the table and for hand work as well...
Gary C.

Gary - I suspect that you will find that removing and reinstalling the Milwaikee router in the table is not a fun thing to do.  If you are bothered by workflow issues and clutter in your shop, you will not want to break down the router table to use the router as a hand-held, only to discover you need to make one more cut with that setup you just broke down.  In addition, a 3+ HP router tends to be rather cumbersome for hand-held work.

 

[Jim McFarland]

...Daviddubya,

       Is that Festool snap in base the correct thickness to make  up the Guide Rail thickness?

Seth

The base I made measures just under .20 inches thick.  My home-made base works well with the router riding on the work surface.  The Festool base measures .12 inches thick.  I have not tried it in place of my base.  Maybe someone else has actually used the Festool base, and will chime in here.

In my experience, the Festool snap in base does not make up the guide rail thickness.  Daviddubya is correct -- you need a base thickness of ~0.20" to bring the bit perpendicular to the material top.  Here are some photos of various base options with a Wixey gauge attached to a long router bit to show the bit angle from the material top.  I was trying to simulate router orientation when doing edge jointing using the guide rail (outrigger doesn't work in these circumstances).  I found similar results with the Wixey on the guide stop rails and the base(s) fully supported on the material (but off the guide rail).

1) Zero Wixey gauge on material surface
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2) Router with no added base (1.7 degrees off)
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3) Router with Festool snap in base (0.5 degrees off)
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4) Router with ~0.20" auxiliary base (Daviddubya's idea) (bit 90 degrees to top)
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5) Photo of the ~0.20" base with snap in adaptor borrowed from the Festool base
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[rodwolfy]

Jim,

Great job. That Wixey looks handy too.

This thread kind of answers one of my questions about the OF1400 and doing rabbits. The 'outrigger' from Festool will not support doing rabbits. Better to get the baseplate, right?

So, what kind of material would make a good base, and how do you get it to the correct thickness? Sanding down some baltic birch would likely give me rounded over edges. Maybe a piece of plexiglass or zero weight plastic stuff (like what goes in a router table fence, but wider?

Is Festool aware that their base doesn't work? It would seem that their engineers figured all the other stuff out, they could make a base that works correctly? Or is this a case of the factory base works and we're not figuring it out?

Rod

************

OK, I reread the posts from the start and David's alternate thread. Formica on hardboard - Great idea. David did you use Formica laminate glue to make the sandwich? And Jim, I like the quick insert idea too. Would than mean that you could just do a quick connect to put on the new sub-base when needed? Or would David's leaving it on all the time be a better way to go, so that you don't loose 1/4" depth of cut?

 

[Daviddubya]

...David did you use Formica laminate glue to make the sandwich?...

I used solvent-based contact cement to adhere Formica on both sides of 1/8" hardboard.  Screwing the auxillary base onto the OF1400 base with the two unused screw holes works great.  The only drawback is having to remove the auxillary base if you want to use bushings on the base - but that is not much of a chore with just two screws to remove.  I used allen head screws that match one of the sizes in the Festool Toolie.

ps - Thinking out loud, I wonder if you could use the Festool base and some shim material to make up the difference in thickness???

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Very nice work with the Wixey gauge.  I was thinking of buying one of those for use on my table saw, but now I see it can have many other uses, even with my Festools.  Has anyone tried using it to dial in a TS 55 or larger circular saw?  Is it limited to measurement relative to plumb (vertical), or can it be used to set a mitre angle (between two horizontal members)?

Dave R.

 

[Jim McFarland]

Rod,
- I used bb plywood and sanded to thickness with a drum sander
- To my knowledge, the Festool base is not designed to raise the router level parallel to the work with off the rail routing.
    It is designed to reduce the router base center bore opening from 2.5" (3.6" fiber base opening) to 0.79".  This greatly reduces risk of router
    tipping when using small bits on corners
- as Daviddubya said, no real need for a snap in base -- I just made mine to serve dual purpose of Festool and Daviddubya bases and used
    the snap on adapter from the Festool base.  I would not purchase a Festool base just to get the snap on adapter.

Dave R,
  - Check Wixey.com for info on the gauge.  I believe it only measures angles relative to plumb from what I read there (and what I just tried)
  - I have not tried to set up TS55 but should work (TS55 on flat surface, zero Wixey on that surface, then attach Wixey to extended TS55
    blade using magnetic base)
  - Agree Wixey is very useful in setting up table saws, jointers and band saws (assuming enough iron, cobalt or nickel for magnets to adhere).

 

[Jim McFarland]

..
- To my knowledge, the Festool base is not designed to raise the router level parallel to the work with off the rail routing.
    It is designed to reduce the router base center bore opening from 3.33" to 0.75+".  This greatly reduces risk of router tipping when using
    small bits on corners
...

Woops,  actually McFeely's info says raising the base up to level with the rail is a 2nd purpose of the base.  Regardless, in my experience, it is not quite thick enough to serve this purpose.

Update: McFeely's info also states base thickness is 5mm -- maybe there is a newer version of 492574 -- mine (purchased in June 2007) is only 3mm (0.12") thick.

 

[greg mann]

I think the original idea for the snap on base was to close up the size of the hole around a smaller bit, making the router more stable for edge type work. I am guessing that Festool did not anticipate users wanting to do guiderail work the way Daviddubbya does. That said, it would be easier all around if the auxiliary base was 5mm thick. It would serve both purposes. It is not accurate, however, to say one cannot rabbet while the router is still on the rail in the conventional manner. Just let the outboard foot slide down to the table or put another thinner piece of stock along the board you are rabbetting for the foot to ride on. It does take a little care this way. One needs to press down over the tracking mechanism to keep the router from sagging while adjusting the foot height. David's technique has less potential for error.