Hammer A3 31 dust collection, is 1250 CFM dust collector good enough?

[Tom the Remodeler]

Answering the original question, I have a Hammer A3-41 (the 16" version) with Silent Power cutter head, currently paired with a Oneida Mini Gorilla via 15' of 5" flex hose.

The Mini Gorilla tops out at ~600 cfm @ 2" SP, and easily keeps up with the chips and dust produced by the A3-41, both in planing as well as jointing. There is the occasional chip that gets away, but it's a rarity.

That being said, it's hard to know what cfm your Dust Rite is actually delivering once you put a filter on it, run flex hose to a cyclone, and then more flex hose to your machine. It might not be sufficient.

If you can afford a Hammer, I suggest you put a "real" dust collector on your long-term "To Buy!" list. Your 4" cyclone is going to separate out the chips, but the finest (and most dangerous!) dust particles are still going to get to the Dust Rite, and get spewed back out into your shop. The Mini Gorilla has served my shop well the last six years or so, using a single 15' run of 5" flex and shifting from machine to machine. It has a HEPA filter, which is itself quite easy to clean.

Hope this helps!

Edit: If you need a wall-mount solution, you might be well-served by a Super Cell:https://www.oneida-air.com/dust-collectors/personal-shops/supercell

Thank you.  I probably just wait to see how this 1250 CFM dust collector works for the machine.  Hopefully it works.  I think the 1 micron canister filter is good enough for me, I really like this machine, not noisy, and it's quite clean although I have not use it much yet.  The 1250 CFM is 1.5 hp, less than the 2hp Oneida mini but labeled as more CFM?  Really don't  know how it can get more CFM than the 2hp machine.

I agree that ultimately, you won’t know until your machine arrives and you get a chance to run it with your existing collector.

In terms of specs, different manufacturers use different methods for generating their specs, thus the wide variation. Many collectors are rated at the inlet, with no bag or filter fitted, thus generating really impressive numbers, but setting unrealistic levels that you’ll never actually see in practice. Oneida gets their numbers with a HEPA filter, often at the end of some length of flex hose, yielding less impressive numbers that are nonetheless more representative of real-world performance. I have a Felder RL160 on order, and the testing criteria on is is to fit it with the filter, expose the collector to a proscribed amount of a specific size of dust media for one hour, then collect data…..

I would disagree with your assessment that “there is no way to collect all the ultra fine dust”. This ultra fine dust gets suspended in the air if not collected at the source, in which case you need to filter the shop air. A collector with sufficient performance will have no problem collecting the ultra-fine dust (easier to collect than chips), at which point you need to make sure you have a filter with a sufficient filter efficiency to actually capture the dust, otherwise your “dust collector” is acting as a dust pump, continuing to circulate the fine dust in your shop. I’m not an expert, but I’d be wary of a 1-micron filter, as it won’t filter out the finest dust. Granted, this shouldn’t be a big issue with a jointer/planer, but would be a major concern if you connected to a sander.

Congrats on your upcoming A3-31, it’s a great machine that should give you a lot of great service.

 

[Mini Me]

As I have said before I am in the duct extraction/collection business but do not deal with what can be called commercial operators only those who could be called hobbyist up to wood working clubs of which we have thousands in Australia.

We advised on and installed a system into a club (called Men's Sheds in Oz) and the obvious result was very apparent immediately it was turned on. They had members who were Asthma sufferers and those guys would be forced to leave the shed due to dust build up in the air despite several dust extractors always being used. Immediately we turned on the new system that problem went away and has never returned.

Another truism in dust collection is if the DE uses a felt or cloth bag then it always leaks dust back into the working area and there is no way around it unless the DE is isolated from the work area and the dust can't return. The absolute best dust control information is available on the Australian WW forum, there is simply no better source world wide and it has built on and surpassed Bill Pentz's site by a long way.

A simple recipe I give to achieve effective dust collection is a 15" impeller using 6" ducting to the machine with 6" ports, it simply works. I have also become a convert to using VFD's controlling three phase motors on DE's for speed and noise control purposes. I was the original Clearvue importer in Oz and I think over 99% of CV's here use 240V/3 phase motors driven by a VFD as It was the only way we could get the impeller speed up to 60hz to match the US. I would never buy a single phase DE after that experience because if noise or other reasons dictate a different speed it is done at the turn of a knob.

Take all that for what it is worth as the end effect of your efforts are what affects you health wise and that can only be a personal decision you have to make.

 

[lshj]

Answering the original question, I have a Hammer A3-41 (the 16" version) with Silent Power cutter head, currently paired with a Oneida Mini Gorilla via 15' of 5" flex hose.

The Mini Gorilla tops out at ~600 cfm @ 2" SP, and easily keeps up with the chips and dust produced by the A3-41, both in planing as well as jointing. There is the occasional chip that gets away, but it's a rarity.

That being said, it's hard to know what cfm your Dust Rite is actually delivering once you put a filter on it, run flex hose to a cyclone, and then more flex hose to your machine. It might not be sufficient.

If you can afford a Hammer, I suggest you put a "real" dust collector on your long-term "To Buy!" list. Your 4" cyclone is going to separate out the chips, but the finest (and most dangerous!) dust particles are still going to get to the Dust Rite, and get spewed back out into your shop. The Mini Gorilla has served my shop well the last six years or so, using a single 15' run of 5" flex and shifting from machine to machine. It has a HEPA filter, which is itself quite easy to clean.

Hope this helps!

Edit: If you need a wall-mount solution, you might be well-served by a Super Cell:https://www.oneida-air.com/dust-collectors/personal-shops/supercell

Thank you.  I probably just wait to see how this 1250 CFM dust collector works for the machine.  Hopefully it works.  I think the 1 micron canister filter is good enough for me, I really like this machine, not noisy, and it's quite clean although I have not use it much yet.  The 1250 CFM is 1.5 hp, less than the 2hp Oneida mini but labeled as more CFM?  Really don't  know how it can get more CFM than the 2hp machine.

I agree that ultimately, you won’t know until your machine arrives and you get a chance to run it with your existing collector.

In terms of specs, different manufacturers use different methods for generating their specs, thus the wide variation. Many collectors are rated at the inlet, with no bag or filter fitted, thus generating really impressive numbers, but setting unrealistic levels that you’ll never actually see in practice. Oneida gets their numbers with a HEPA filter, often at the end of some length of flex hose, yielding less impressive numbers that are nonetheless more representative of real-world performance. I have a Felder RL160 on order, and the testing criteria on is is to fit it with the filter, expose the collector to a proscribed amount of a specific size of dust media for one hour, then collect data…..

I would disagree with your assessment that “there is no way to collect all the ultra fine dust”. This ultra fine dust gets suspended in the air if not collected at the source, in which case you need to filter the shop air. A collector with sufficient performance will have no problem collecting the ultra-fine dust (easier to collect than chips), at which point you need to make sure you have a filter with a sufficient filter efficiency to actually capture the dust, otherwise your “dust collector” is acting as a dust pump, continuing to circulate the fine dust in your shop. I’m not an expert, but I’d be wary of a 1-micron filter, as it won’t filter out the finest dust. Granted, this shouldn’t be a big issue with a jointer/planer, but would be a major concern if you connected to a sander.

Congrats on your upcoming A3-31, it’s a great machine that should give you a lot of great service.

Thank you. I have a 1 micron canister filter that connected to the dust collector. I think that would help to avoid pushing the fine dust to the air. Also the dust deputy might also help a little.  I probably have to wait until the machine comes to tell how good it works. As long as it works for the jointer/planer and the bandsaw, I will be very happy.  I won't use the dust collector for sander. I have a festool CT MIDI if I need to use the sander, or I just use the sander outside. I built a small shed in my back yard with a deck. I put my table saw in it and when I need to use the table saw, I push the saw to the deck to use it outside. The saw is a Sawstop contractor saw that I bought many years ago,  so it not difficult to move around. I feel like using the saw outside is the best solution for me to deal with the dust problem for the table saw.  I recently bought a festool track saw hoping that I could us the track saw do more cutting, but really disappointed with the dust extraction of the track saw.

 

[lshj]

As I have said before I am in the duct extraction/collection business but do not deal with what can be called commercial operators only those who could be called hobbyist up to wood working clubs of which we have thousands in Australia.

We advised on and installed a system into a club (called Men's Sheds in Oz) and the obvious result was very apparent immediately it was turned on. They had members who were Asthma sufferers and those guys would be forced to leave the shed due to dust build up in the air despite several dust extractors always being used. Immediately we turned on the new system that problem went away and has never returned.

Another truism in dust collection is if the DE uses a felt or cloth bag then it always leaks dust back into the working area and there is no way around it unless the DE is isolated from the work area and the dust can't return. The absolute best dust control information is available on the Australian WW forum, there is simply no better source world wide and it has built on and surpassed Bill Pentz's site by a long way.

A simple recipe I give to achieve effective dust collection is a 15" impeller using 6" ducting to the machine with 6" ports, it simply works. I have also become a convert to using VFD's controlling three phase motors on DE's for speed and noise control purposes. I was the original Clearvue importer in Oz and I think over 99% of CV's here use 240V/3 phase motors driven by a VFD as It was the only way we could get the impeller speed up to 60hz to match the US. I would never buy a single phase DE after that experience because if noise or other reasons dictate a different speed it is done at the turn of a knob.

Take all that for what it is worth as the end effect of your efforts are what affects you health wise and that can only be a personal decision you have to make.

Thank you for all the information. It looks like that larger duct might help a lot. The Dust right dust collector has actually a 6" port, and connected with a Y shape 4"' adapter. I might need to change it to 6" or 5" duct if it doesn't work very well.

 

[Mini Me]

Thank you for all the information. It looks like that larger duct might help a lot. The Dust right dust collector has actually a 6" port, and connected with a Y shape 4"' adapter. I might need to change it to 6" or 5" duct if it doesn't work very well.

4" duct simply can't flow enough air to reach the 1000 cubic feet generally regarded as a minimum requirement as the maximum air flow is around 700 cubic feet a minute. Get rid of the 4" entries and use a 6" duct to maximise the flow. I run my 1800 CV at 70hz and I reckon that is the sweet spot for maximum air flow. At that speed the 6" is most probably too small and 7" would be better but we can't buy 7" anywhere in Oz unless it is custom made and I  am not springing for that because then the blast gates we sell would have to be enlarged as well.

 

[lshj]

Thank you for all the information. It looks like that larger duct might help a lot. The Dust right dust collector has actually a 6" port, and connected with a Y shape 4"' adapter. I might need to change it to 6" or 5" duct if it doesn't work very well.

4" duct simply can't flow enough air to reach the 1000 cubic feet generally regarded as a minimum requirement as the maximum air flow is around 700 cubic feet a minute. Get rid of the 4" entries and use a 6" duct to maximise the flow. I run my 1800 CV at 70hz and I reckon that is the sweet spot for maximum air flow. At that speed the 6" is most probably too small and 7" would be better but we can't buy 7" anywhere in Oz unless it is custom made and I  am not springing for that because then the blast gates we sell would have to be enlarged as well.

That makes perfect sense.  When I installed my range wood with the external blower for my kitchen, I used 10" rigid duct and also tried to make the duct as short as possible.  The diameter of the duct would significantly affect the efficiency of the ventilation.

 

[mdhills]

I don't feel the A3-31 is particularly demanding for reasonable dust collection.  A standard 1100cfm collector pulls enough air, although the filter clogs quickly. I added an oneida dust deputy as a separator in front, and that really helped.  (I was jointing cedar with straight knives)

I'm very surprised that you are getting a lot of dust with your festool track saw and vacuum.  Mine TS55 and vac are quite clean.

I do wear a P100 dust mask when doing any power tool work indoors, as there always is some amount of fines that ends up in the air.  Outdoors or fans to set up a cross breeze would help a lot.

Matt

 

[RobS888]

The A3-31 requires 500CFM (814m3/h),  at a vacuum of 3"WC (740 Pa). It has a 120mm inlet.

I have a Felder AF-12 (1350m3/h) on my Hammer A3-26 and it's more than enough.

Thank you for the information. So I would assume the dust right 1250 cfm would be just fine.

It will be fine to pick up the debris that can be swept up but is unlikely to do much for the dangerous micro fine dust.

As long as it can pick up majority of the dust, I think I would be happy enough.  I read some articles about woodworking dust problem and realized that there is no way you can get rid of all the micro fine dust.  No matter how good the dust collector is, it can only pick up the dust that is adjacent to the hose.  There is always significant amount of leaked fine dust that the dust collector can do nothing about it. 

I recently purchased a TSC 55 track saw with the CT MIDI dust extractor because I heard that festool dust collection is so good. But once I used the track saw, I was so disappointed, the dust is everywhere and so much dust leaked in front of the track saw blade, every time I used the track saw, I have to clean up significant amount of dust. Then I tested the dust bag that came with the saw, and realized that about 80-90% of dust has been collected in the bag. Connecting to the dust extractor is slightly better than the bag, but not a lot.  Now I know that I am expecting  too much. I am just accepting the  fact that there is always leaked dust. 

I also have a jet air filtration that looks like a big box.  I bought it a long time and have not used it too much.  I am planning to hang it to my garage ceiling.  Hopefully it could help a little to make the garage air clean.  If that doesn't work very well, I might get a rabbit air purifier, I heard some good review about it.  I don't think I will use the jointer/planer more than once a week, probably even less. Mostly I just use it to build some furniture for my home and some other fun projects.

I think you should look at what comes off of a machine as two separate types: dust and larger pieces called chips. The dust collector pulls large amounts of air containing dust, (or pieces that have settled near the intake) I don't know if they are designed to pull chips, if they do that is a benefit. If something is heavy enough to fall to the floor its only danger is perhaps as a trip hazard.

I have a TSC 55 and the only time I have much dust is if it isn't a full cut. Meaning I'm trimming off a small amount and the blade isn't fully in the wood. My table saw will coat me in dust if I do the same thing.

 

[Mini Me]

I think you should look at what comes off of a machine as two separate types: dust and larger pieces called chips.

This is a point that most do not understand, the big debris is not the health problem it is the fine micron sized dust that does the long term damage. I wish I had a dollar for every story I have been told due to long term dust exposure and the resultant issues and even job losses that have been caused by fine dust exposure. In the end it is a personal decision and only you can make that......maybe. I had a lady call me and order a Clearvue because she was sick and tired of her husband coughing and sneezing during the night and he refused to see the problem so she decided to take action.

 

[rmhinden]

Answering the original question, I have a Hammer A3-41 (the 16" version) with Silent Power cutter head, currently paired with a Oneida Mini Gorilla via 15' of 5" flex hose.

I have the same setup and it works well for me.  The Mini Gorilla has no issue keeping up with the A3-41.

Bob

 

[lshj]

Update.  Finally the Hammer A3 31 arrived.  I set up everything and tested the machine with the Dust Right 1250cfm wall mounted dust collector with the Oneida 4" dust deputy, and a 2-14 feet expandable 4" hose through a 4"PVC coupling adaptor to the machine.  Overall I am very satisfied with the dust collection results.  That are a little bit larger chips but overall the working area is very clean without any noticeable fine dust observed. 

At first, I was regret that I bought the Oneida 4" dust deputy and thought I should buy the 5' one with 5" hose.  After I tested the machine, I don't regret anymore, 4" hose works just fine for me and it's enough for what I need.

 

[Mini Me]

Overall I am very satisfied with the dust collection results.  That are a little bit larger chips but overall the working area is very clean without any noticeable fine dust observed. 

It is a bit hard to observe something that can't be seen.

 

[MikeGE]

Overall I am very satisfied with the dust collection results.  That are a little bit larger chips but overall the working area is very clean without any noticeable fine dust observed. 

It is a bit hard to observe something that can't be seen.

At some point you just have to say "I wish you the best" and move on.  I think you have done your best, but there is only so much you can do.

I gave up trying to convince my friends there is a difference between chips that fall on the floor and harmful dust they can't see.  Even when I bring my Dylos DC1700 to their shop and let them see the numbers skyrocket, they are not convinced.

 

[Mini Me]

I have always said the level of dust collection you do is on you as it is your health and no one else's. It was an observation and nothing else.

 

[lshj]

I tested two pieces of wood and didn't realize how much chips that were generated until I opened the dust deputy.  Almost all the wood chips have been collected by the dust collector.  I would say that this dust collector is >99.9% effective to collect all these wood chips.

I am fully aware of the unobservable fine dust.  The 1250 CPM dust collector is good enough  for the hammer A3 31 jointer. The major problem is not lacking of the suction power.  It's the canister filter which is only rated at 1 micron and not meet other peoples requirement for the 0.3 micron filter.  I don't know if I could buy an 0.3 micron filter that fit the Dust Right 1250 dust collector?

I am not a professional wood worker that breath in the filtered air in the workshop everyday. I am just a wood working hobbyist doing some weekend woodworking project, probably use this machine no more than once a week.  I read some articles saying that for nonprofessional woodworking hobbyist, there is no observed health risk.  I think my dust collection set up is not inferior to an average woodworking hobbyist.  In addition, I live in Los Angeles which has dirty air, smaller than 1 micron fine dust is everywhere in the air of Los Angeles.  To solve this fine dust problem, I think what I need is not the dust collector, but an air purification system with 0.3 micron or even better filter, not only for the garage workshop, but for the entire house.

I also have a JET AFS-1000B air filtration system that I bought many years ago hanging on the ceiling of the garage. I bought it because of very  good review but I have not used it  very often.  Then I realized  that the JET  filter is only 5 micron, even worse than my dust collector filter. It seems there is no point to use this JET air filtration system.  The dust collection of this hammer A3-31 is so good that I barely see any chips left out after planing.  In contrast, the festool track saw with dust extractor has horrible dust collection and small dust is everywhere after each use.  I think it's probably more difficult to collect the dust from a saw. I moved my table saw to my backyard shed and moved the saw to outside deck whenever I want to use it.  I refused to use the table saw inside because I couldn't get satisfactory dust collection for a table saw.