Hammer K3 Winner Start-Capacitor Replacement - SOLVED

[krudawg]

My Hammer K3 is about 8 years old and my saw failed to start.  I checked all the usual suspects (emergency button sw, the switch that holds the sliding sheet metal when changing the blade)  I pushed the start button and the saw blade moved about 1/8" and stopped.  Called Felder and received TWO start capacitors.  I had to go thru a Tech guy before selling me the parts.  He concurred it most likely is the start capacitors.  I received them Friday. 
I pulled the plate off and separated the plastic box attached to the metal plate and thats where I thought I should ask for help.  Has anybody done the capacitor R&R on the Hammer who is willing to provide me a narrative on how to do it?  Maybe provide an electrical diagram???

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

Hi Krugawg,

You'll get a more knowledgeable response on the Felder Owners Group forum:https://groups.io/g/felderownersgroup/topics

Looking in the Files section, there are a bunch of manuals and wiring diagrams which would likely be helpful.

 

[montyss]

Tom is right ask about the capacitor change over on the Felder owners group. Rod possibly will see your post and let you know how to go about it.

 

[krudawg]

I figured it out.  The Hammer K3 has TWO capacitors sitting on an L-bracket to the left of the opening after removing the switch plate.  One Capacitor is secured by a nut and washer to the L-bracket and the second one sits on the L-bracket but is secured by a zip-tie to the other Capacitor.  The job was mind-numbing because there is very little work area to perform the capacitor replacement.  My biggest mistake was after removing the plastic box (which contained all the electronics for the saw) I saw 4 more screws on the front of the box and decided to remove them.  The screws were tapered with a chrome like finish on the screws.  I started unscrewing them and something was spinning inside the plastic box.  The screws held threaded plastic/rubber fasteners in place which provided a threaded holder for the screws that hold the external plate that secures the entire switch box to the saw.  I damaged two of these and now I can't properly secure the switch plate to the plastic box.  I will be contacting Felder this morning for new ones.  If they are not available than I am going to have a lot of problems figuring out how to attach the mounting plate.  After everything was done the saw worked perfectly.  I would describe the job as challenging only because of the extremely tight available working space.

 

[krudawg]

Tried to use my saw yesterday after replacing the two Capacitors.  It worked after I finished the job but yesterday my saw was dead.  I suspect one or both of the Capacitor wiring leads maybe popped out of the lug I attached to to but apparently I didn't get it in the lug correctly.  I'm waiting for a few more parts (fasteners the hold the switch plate on the plastic box.

 

[Packard]

I learned a little bit about capacitors when the one in my Craftsman radial arm saw burned out and the motor would not start.

At the time, Sears was still in business.  I went to the store and was told that the saw was no longer supported and (probably because of recalls and liability issues) they were not permitted to give any advice about repairs or use of the discontinued saw. 

What I learned is there are a bunch of numbers printed on the side of the capacitor and if you go to Grainger or an electronics supplier they can match up the burned out capacitor with a replacement with the identical specs.

In my case, I did it on line.  The vendor, whose name I cannot recall, asked me to send a photo of the original capacitor.  They were like $3.00 each plus shipping.  I got a couple of spares—but I have absolutely no idea where they are.  The replacement was simple and the saw has worked perfectly.

 

[luvmytoolz]

I learned a little bit about capacitors when the one in my Craftsman radial arm saw burned out and the motor would not start.

At the time, Sears was still in business.  I went to the store and was told that the saw was no longer supported and (probably because of recalls and liability issues) they were not permitted to give any advice about repairs or use of the discontinued saw. 

What I learned is there are a bunch of numbers printed on the side of the capacitor and if you go to Grainger or an electronics supplier they can match up the burned out capacitor with a replacement with the identical specs.

In my case, I did it on line.  The vendor, whose name I cannot recall, asked me to send a photo of the original capacitor.  They were like $3.00 each plus shipping.  I got a couple of spares—but I have absolutely no idea where they are.  The replacement was simple and the saw has worked perfectly.

Washing machine appliance service centres will have a large range of replacement caps at usually cheap prices, but the thing to note is whether you require a start or a run cap which will affect the duty cycle.

 

[krudawg]

My buddy, an electrical engineer and his buddy, a Mechanical Engineer tried to run some tests on the internal components in the plastic switch box.  They were unable to do so mainly because the electrical diagram, provided by Felder, is too basic and leaves a lot of the technical specs and drawings to your imagination. Does anybody have a real technical electrical schematic of the saws plastic swithch box internals?  Because if not, I will be forced to pay OVER $500 from Felder to get a new switch box.

 

[Mini Me]

It is pretty basic stuff and as I said earlier an appliance guy or commercial sparky should be able to sort it out. Firstly, eliminate the inhibitor switch out of the equation and confirm supply to the motor, confirm the caps are good (they are new so they should be) then if it does not start check all wiring connections and continuity. After all that and it still refuses to start then look at the control box and switch. One thing I have aways thought a bit dodgy on the K3 is the inhibitor switch and it always seemed to me it might move while the saw is in use because of vibration. I would want absolute proof of a fault in the switch box before I shelled out money for a new one, the fault seems intermittent and that could be a bit tricky to find. You should not need any detailed information to do any of the above, a good multi meter and the knowledge to use is all that is needed.

 

[krudawg]

Thanks, that is good information.  I've checked both the Emergency Shut off button on the side and the interupter switch  in the center position of the saw blade access panel.  I checked them with an ohm meter and their functionality works as advertised.  There is a fuse on the circuit board that is inside the plastic box and that checks ok. I noticed that there is a Klinger Born sticker on the side of the plastic box with model numbers and serial numbers which kind of tells me that Klinger Born sold the plastic box all all the components to Felder.  I took a lot of pictures with all the markings on the relays in the switch box and fired off an email to Klinger Born in Germany asking if they could supply new relays.  I may have hit pay-dirt on that one.  I got a reply in both German and English asking for my complete address and telephone number.  By the time I got their email it was after business hours in Germany so I probably won't hear back from them until Friday at the earliest.  In addition to the information they requested that they send me an electronic schematic of the box - I have my fingers crossed.

 

[krudawg]

The saw is now fixed and it took several hours of troubleshooting to figure it out.  During the troubleshooting saga, I attempted to contact Klinger Born (They sold the control box to Felder) to purchase new relays - don't waste your time you will not be able to buy them). From the beginning I found that the first point of failure was the Start Capacitor (The saw has 2 40mf Capacitors - A start Capacitor and a run Capacitor) but Felder will only sell you both capacitors for $78 - they are slightly different then the OEM Capacitors that were installed by Felder.  These new ones have a plastic cap which prevents you from mounting BOTH capacitors on the "L" inside the saw as they were originally mounted.  I didn't want to re-drill another hole in the "L" to accommodate  this new type of capacitor, so I mounted one to the bracket and zip-tied the other to the mounted capacitor.  Troubleshooting the plastic box was increasingly frustrating because Felder cut all the electric cables so short you can barely pull the box out to repair it. I'm not that knowledgable about electronics so I had a buddy who is an Electrical Engineer troubleshoot the box - every lug connection point on the relays were verified secure.  I had replaced the capacitors myself before my buddy got involved.  While Troubleshoot my buddy discovered a startling issue.  When he grounded my saw to my hot water heater in my shop and put his meter on the heavy bar that the fence slides on, his VOM read "120 volts".  Huh?  So now we started working backwards and start thinking that the heavy duty twist lock plugs may have been incorrectly installed by another buddy of mine who is a Mechanical Engineer while we were troubleshooting the control box.  Turns out that the color coding on the extension cord (#12 3-wire 600 amp cord) was different than what Felder used in their control box.  He realized his mistake - the color he thought was ground turned out to ba "Hot".  So he swapped the leads on the plugs and we turned the saw on and my saw came to life.  The moral of the story - when troubleshooting anything electrical, do not work on anything else while troublshooting.

 

[waho6o9]

I'm glad you got it sorted out, heck of a story there thanks for sharing.

 

[Mini Me]

It shows that using a qualified electrician would have been a better approach.

 

[krudawg]

ouch.  I'll pass on your comment to my Electrical Engineer buddy.  He works at the Nuclear Power Plant.  Yeah, he always saves me from myself [smile]

 

[Mini Me]

An engineer is not a tradesman who deals in stuff like this every day. Sad but true unfortunately and something I have seen a few times before.

 

[krudawg]

Yes but like they say "In the land of the blind; the one-eyed is king". I was in trouble the minute I turned my VOM and selected OHM.  I would have eventually bought a new control box from Felder if my buddies had not figured it out but at $500 it would have been painful to buy one.

 

[HighlandMarine]

The lack of a global electrical color standard strikes again. This is the daily thorn in my side as a marine electrician. (US/Euro/Asian built boats, all for different consumer markets, and combining both AC, DC, generators, inverters, and no agreed upon uniform means of wiring/labeling)