Hand tools? Or a jointer & planer?

[impecunious]

Hi guys,

I'm at a bit of a proverbial fork in the road and I'm just not sure which path to take.  To explain, I'm still fairly new to woodworking, but I have accumulated a fair bit of Festool kit... the tracksaw, CT 26, MFT set, Kapex, CMS and router, and Domino are the major components I have.  However, this is basically ALL of the major woodworking gear I have.  Notably absent from this list are a jointer and planer, either in power tool or hand tool form.

I'm also dealing with a relatively small space for my shop, roughly 220 sq ft.  So I have very little tolerance for any tool that won't be extraordinarily useful because my free space is getting slim.

I really don't know which tool route to take to simply mill a board 4-square.  For the time being, I've bought some wood surfaced two sides from an online site (Woodworker's Source) and I will probably plan to do so for the foreseeable future, with my rationale being that I won't have to usually flatten this stock and then plane it, and assuming that I like the thickness as is.  But even then, this doesn't seem to be a foolproof approach.  The last S2S board I bought recently was in good shape for the most part, but even it wasn't perfect and one stick out of a picture frame I was making was slightly twisted and basically put me dead in the water with the project.

To me, the downside of buying a planer (assuming I can get by with my TS 55 as the edge jointer) is the space it will occupy in my shop.  Granted, something like the DeWalt DW735 13" planer isn't a huge footprint, but it's still something, and will also require (I guess) a Dust Deputy or similar to handle the chunks.  On the other hand, the downside of hand tools like jack & jointer planes is the sheer time that seems to be involved.  If I were making something like this simple picture frame again and needed to flatten out one stray stick member, the idea of using hand tools to flatten that stick - and then thickness the other three members to compensate - just seems a little sadistic.  Don't get me wrong... the idea of hand tools really intrigues me.  But the time involved with them just to flatten & thickness lumber in this example "scares" me.  In fairness, I have no idea how long an exercise like that would take, but my guess is it would be orders of magnitude more than using power tools.

Can you guys give me some advice here?  Thanks!

 

[stvrowe]

Unless you plan on adding a substantial workbench, don't consider the hand plane route.  The MFT just isn't stable enough to do this activity IMO.  Also, this does require substantial effort and practice to be proficient. 

With the limited space you have, I would be looking at a Hammer jointer/planer combo model A3-31.  This would give you both machines occupying the same space.

 

[rst]

I second the Hammer combo route.  I have a 35 year old .2" Powermatic planer and a Jet 16-32 drum sander but never bought a wide jointer.  I'm intending to buy the A3 41 Hammer and putting my Powermatic up for sale (I can get more than I paid for it).

 

[Kev]

Another vote for a combo from me!

... on a mobile base - right next to your new bandsaw [wink] [big grin]

 

[Cheese]

[member=59050]impecunious[/member]
We've discussed your available space but the other item we haven't discussed is your budget. I have no idea what a Hammer Combo runs, but that just may be the straw that broke the camel's back. Compactness along with accuracy comes at a price.

 

[mouppe]

I've made do without a jointer for ten years now, but a thickness planer is essential for me. I do use a lot of hand tools though, and jointing with a hand plane is actually very fast if you have the right tools and technique. It also goes without saying that there are no width restrictions when hand jointing a board.

Frequently I pay the lumber yard to dimension the boards for me as well.

 

[Svar]

One thing to consider is production volume. If you are a hobbyist making couple of pieces of furniture a year from S2S lumber having A3 will be total waste. I never had proper bench, but it did not stop me from using hand planes. You can rig up sturdy and removable surface. You don't need fancy planes either. There are plenty of options. Router sleds, ts saw for joining, etc.

 

[Cheese]

FWIW...Ive had a Delta jointer and a Dewalt planer, for the last 15/20 years. I probably use the planer at least 10-15 times as often as I use the jointer. There is always a way to joint a board such as using a table saw or track saw, but there are few viable options to easily thickness plane a piece of lumber. A planer is a necessity, a jointer is a bonus round.

 

[impecunious]

All great points, guys... thanks so much.  Honestly, I really had never spent much time at all before considering the Euro-style combination machines, and I had never heard of Hammer (or now Felder, Mini Max, and the like).  After doing a little web window shopping, all I can say is wow... amazing machines.

[member=59050]impecunious[/member]
We've discussed your available space but the other item we haven't discussed is your budget. I have no idea what a Hammer Combo runs, but that just may be the straw that broke the camel's back. Compactness along with accuracy comes at a price.

And here's my biggest concern... these amazing machines cost amazing coin.  Even just the Hammer planer/jointer combo is at least $3K from what I've quickly gleaned.  And although a little off topic, it would be totally sweet to have an all-in-one machine like the Hammer C series... but as I think about all of the relatively still new Festool gear sitting in my garage, I just don't want to even picture the thought that I've gone down the wrong path for my small space.  So I'll just think happy thoughts and pretend those 5-in-1 machines don't exist.  [big grin]

The reality is that I'm a weekend warrior at best.  I want to woodwork for fun, it's about time that I start doing something with my shop besides "getting it ready" for woodworking, and I'm really not excited at the thought of stomaching several grand more for a good combination planer/jointer.  Now the Dewalt 735 planer & its mobile base (which is a smaller footprint still than the Hammer!) is suddenly looking much more attractive to me.  Surely with this, my tracksaw, and the occasional bench plane or two, I can be off to the races when it comes to milling a board 4-square... right?

 

[Steve-Rice]

I agree with Cheese on prioritizing the planer over the jointer.  I built a sled which let's me "face joint" stock on the planer. By placing shims between the stock and the sled, you can stabilize your stock to face plane the first side of your board, then flip it over and go through the planer on the second side without the sled.

I'm certain I'm not explaining this well, but there is a video somewhere on the internet where some guy did this and it works really well. 

I've done a lot of boards with a Lie- Nielsen # 8. It's fun the first few times you do it, but it gets old real fast, especially if you have a bunch of boards to do. I personally prefer to let a power planer do this job...

Hope this helps...

 

[Jesse Cloud]

Depends on where you want to go with your woodworking.  One thing for sure, is that a weekend warrior does not have the time to square up many boards with a handplane.

If you can find a good lumberyard in your area, they can do the milling for you, for a price, and solve your problem.

If you need to be self sufficient, then you will need a way to mill rough lumber to a variety of sizes.  Frankly, I have seldom seen s2s lumber off the rack that is sufficiently square to build furniture with.

A combo is probably the best bet.  Get it on wheels so you can move it out of the way as needed.  Though most combos will need 220v.

There is a good market in used equipment these days.  Try craigslist before you buy new.

 

[Holmz]

Depends on where you want to go with your woodworking.  One thing for sure, is that a weekend warrior does not have the time to square up many boards with a handplane.

If you can find a good lumberyard in your area, they can do the milling for you, for a price, and solve your problem.
...

Amen - The rest of the [member=457]Jesse Cloud[/member] message (that I left out) was also good.

Sometimes I have had 'propeller stock' and handplaned one side to make it flat, and then strutted back to have the lumber yard run it through their thicknesser.

 

[impecunious]

Amen - The rest of the [member=457]Jesse Cloud[/member] message (that I left out) was also good.

Sometimes I have had 'propeller stock' and handplaned one side to make it flat, and then strutted back to have the lumber yard run it through their thicknesser.

I can see why this was suggested.  My biggest hiccup with it is that to my knowledge, I don't have a local lumberyard nearby that sells high-quality lumber that would also mill it square for me.

Just out of curiosity, speaking of those Hammer machines... if you guys had 220 sq ft of space like I do and didn't have a single machine to start with, would you have gone with a Euro 5-in-1 machine or with Festool?  I don't know why I have this feeling in my stomach that maybe one of those machines would have made more sense for my space...  [sad]

 

[Jesse Cloud]

"I can see why this was suggested.  My biggest hiccup with it is that to my knowledge, I don't have a local lumberyard nearby that sells high-quality lumber that would also mill it square for me."

If you tell us where you are, maybe we can help find a good yard.

Any woodworker's clubs nearby?  They are a great source for local info.

 

[impecunious]

If you tell us where you are, maybe we can help find a good yard.

Any woodworker's clubs nearby?  They are a great source for local info.

I'm in the Tippecanoe County area of Indiana.  Besides the big box stores, we have a couple of local lumberyards, but one of them for sure definitely doesn't offer quality hardwood.  There are definitely lumbermills around, but the couple I've called don't deal with consumers unless you want to buy at least a thousand board feet or something.

There is a woodworking club... the Wabash Valley Woodworkers I think it's called.  That is a good idea to reach out to them for thoughts.

 

[grbmds]

The woodworking club is definitely your best bet. Not only are the members likely to know sources for good quality hardwood, but they may also have access to planers and jointers, either owned by the club members or by some company that will do this work for you custom to your needs.

Also, since you are, to some degree, just beginning, they would also be a great resource when you have questions. While the internet offers a huge amount of information (some good and some not so good), it's always nice to have access to someone who may be able to show you in person or help you work through problems you encounter.

It certainly is possible to use the TS55 for jointing and edge, but the question is would serve 100% of your needs? If it doesn't then you still have the problem which needs a solution.

 

[RussellS]

Just out of curiosity, speaking of those Hammer machines... if you guys had 220 sq ft of space like I do and didn't have a single machine to start with, would you have gone with a Euro 5-in-1 machine or with Festool?

My opinion.  220 sq ft is about 15 ft by 15 ft.  21 ft diagonal.  Good enough sized space.  I'd opt for the stationary machine.  Or the saw/shaper and jointer/planer machines.  And a Domino for joints.  Assume you will do all of your woodworking in this space and not need to do anything on site (portable).  Add a workbench or worktable on the side.  The above tools and a very few hand tools could accomplish almost anything.  In a small space.  If you are committed and dedicated to making woodworking a hobby, I'd advise spending the big money to start.  Instead of doing the upgrade shenanigans.  Buy starter tool, upgrade, upgrade, upgrade, upgrade.  You end up spending as much or more than if you started at the top.  And you spend a lot of wasted time before you get the good tools to do good work sort of easily.  Money, time, tool quality, there is a compromise with all these together.  I realize dropping big bucks on something new is dangerous.  Better to work your way into it gradually.  Its just that with woodworking, and other things too, unless you have high quality tools, and expensive, its hard to really enjoy it or be successful.  This is not an absolute.  But take planes as an example.  High dollar and quality Lie-Nielsen compared to a cheap, rusty, old Sears brand plane from the 1960s.  LN you use and it works perfectly.  Sears you rebuild it and adjust it and maybe it will work OK.  Are you a woodworker or a machinist, antique restorer, woodworker?  Where does the joy come from?  You can produce a straight edge on a board with either, its just how you want to get to that result.

This is the hand tool forum.  So its a bit odd to talk about Festool and Hammer machines here.  I know the original question was about hand jointer or power jointer and planer.  But we have digressed from that quite aways.

 

[ear3]

Having a tracksaw and a long rail will cover many of the bases you would otherwise need a jointer for.  By just adding a decent planer, you will be able to surface and true up rough lumber, provided it's not overly twisted or cupped.  The planer will work just fine hooked up to a large shop vac without the dust deputy as well, in case you were worried about that. 

Hi guys,

I'm at a bit of a proverbial fork in the road and I'm just not sure which path to take.  To explain, I'm still fairly new to woodworking, but I have accumulated a fair bit of Festool kit... the tracksaw, CT 26, MFT set, Kapex, CMS and router, and Domino are the major components I have.  However, this is basically ALL of the major woodworking gear I have.  Notably absent from this list are a jointer and planer, either in power tool or hand tool form.

I'm also dealing with a relatively small space for my shop, roughly 220 sq ft.  So I have very little tolerance for any tool that won't be extraordinarily useful because my free space is getting slim.

I really don't know which tool route to take to simply mill a board 4-square.  For the time being, I've bought some wood surfaced two sides from an online site (Woodworker's Source) and I will probably plan to do so for the foreseeable future, with my rationale being that I won't have to usually flatten this stock and then plane it, and assuming that I like the thickness as is.  But even then, this doesn't seem to be a foolproof approach.  The last S2S board I bought recently was in good shape for the most part, but even it wasn't perfect and one stick out of a picture frame I was making was slightly twisted and basically put me dead in the water with the project.

To me, the downside of buying a planer (assuming I can get by with my TS 55 as the edge jointer) is the space it will occupy in my shop.  Granted, something like the DeWalt DW735 13" planer isn't a huge footprint, but it's still something, and will also require (I guess) a Dust Deputy or similar to handle the chunks.  On the other hand, the downside of hand tools like jack & jointer planes is the sheer time that seems to be involved.  If I were making something like this simple picture frame again and needed to flatten out one stray stick member, the idea of using hand tools to flatten that stick - and then thickness the other three members to compensate - just seems a little sadistic.  Don't get me wrong... the idea of hand tools really intrigues me.  But the time involved with them just to flatten & thickness lumber in this example "scares" me.  In fairness, I have no idea how long an exercise like that would take, but my guess is it would be orders of magnitude more than using power tools.

Can you guys give me some advice here?  Thanks!

 

[RussellS]

Having a tracksaw and a long rail will cover many of the bases you would otherwise need a jointer for.  By just adding a decent planer, you will be able to surface and true up rough lumber, provided it's not overly twisted or cupped.

Its always been my impression that you must have one flat surface to run through a planer.  Jointer can get that beginning flat surface.  Tracksaw does fine for straightening one edge of a board.  But flattening one face?  A planer with its pressure rollers  will follow the dips in the face of a board.  Planer uses its rollers to force the face down onto the surface.  Then smooth the other side.  And when the board comes out of the planer and no longer has the rollers putting pressure on the board, it goes back to being wavy, with a smooth face on the other side.  Planer does not flatten the board unless one side starts flat when it is pushed into the planer.

 

[Steve-Rice]

[member=13115]RussellS[/member], although your comments are basically true regarding the planer, a practical alternative for using a planer to flatten the first face of the board is with a sled specifically designed for that purpose.  By shimming between the board and the sled, you can stabilize the board as it goes through the planer. I have used this method successfully many, many times. My sled is built as a torsion box so it will not flex under the planer rollers.  I've seen videos on line where guys used elaborate methods for stabilizing the board on the sled, but I find simple shims held in place with blue painters tape works just fine. Using this method I can " face joint" a 15" wide board. Not easy to get access to a 15" jointer...