Hello from a new member on FOG. Descision Descisions

[Cuttin da rope]

Hello FOG members!

Trying to keep this (2nd post) short as possible, a quick how I got here.
Laid off from banking industry 2 years ago, struggling to keep all interests on
wife graduating college/medical school and her internship at the local hospital.
After the first year of finding no work for myself, although I do computers and
electronics on the side, the wife graduated, took the job offer at the hospital
here and cash flow has been looking up. We decided to build a house on some
land 20 miles outside the city. With a lot of free time during this process I was
able to handpick my builder and the crews to build the house.

During the hanging of the interior doors phase by the trim/finish carpenter I was
on hand one day and having a great conversation with the trim companies owner.
I had been observing one of his crew hang a door with vultures eyes and had thought
that type of job seemed very rewarding(compared to my banking experience which
I do realize produces nothing of value) and satisfying. Anyways the trim company
owner an I had been talking about me needing a fairly new flatscreen tv and he
happened to have a 3 month old Toshiba he was willing to sell for pennies on the
dollar. Not sure what came over me but I made a bet that if I could hang an interior
door as well as one of his guys would he give me the tv. He laughed and accepted
my challenge. He had one of his guys give me a few tools(6ft level+2footer, 16gauge nailer,
backing for behind hinges, shims, tape measure, pry guy, some 10 pennys, assorted hand tools
and a makita skill saw in case I needed to cut jamb or door down) and away I went!
40 minutes later he asked me if I wanted a job and could I start in 3 days just hanging
doors in a 1.4 mil design home they were starting, and he'd deliver the tv tomorrow lol. Apparently I'm a natural with woodworking.

Fastforward a year later and I am a full time interior trim and finish guy. I have been
using the big power tools provided by the boss for that time. Dewalt and Makita mitre
saws, Dewalt and Rigid contractor on site portable table saws etc.
I am now starting down the path to having my own collection of big power tools not
only to help efficiency for my boss, but as well as side work for myself.

A quick breakdown of what it is we do most to help gather better responses for the tools
I am looking at.
We mostly do your standard run of the mill production houses in the 250k to 650k range.
Between 4 or 5 luxury detailed houses a year as well in the 1 million to 2 million range.
The woodworking consists of hanging doors which includes lots of screwing and dealing
with the handles and locking mechanisms themselves. Tons of french doors sets. Also we
also re-hang all exsisting exterior doors original set by the framers.
Doing all stairs which requires some specialty tools. But by far and away mostly cutting
standard treads and risers, skirt boards and the such. Rails and everything else that goes
along with stairs and railings. Also doing garage entry stairs and railings.
Columns whether interior or exterior.
All casing and basing of doors and windows.
All window jambs and seats.
All specialty woodworking including onsite cabinets, bookshelves, built-ins, modular shelving
for entertainment systems, closets, laundry rooms and pantrys. Picture frames are becoming increasingly on our to do list as well.

So far I have come up with a small but important list.
Mitre saw, domino and dato machines. Routers. sanders. Cordless drills. Jigsaw. Dust
extraction. Track saw with multiple length tracks.

I perused my local carpentry and specialty dealer a few weeks back. That was my first time
ever laying eyes on Festool products. And wow was I impressed with the fit and quality finish  of their products. The dealer seemed less than interested to let me play with the festool
machines. I had to really twist his arm to let me cut with a kapex or drill with a cxs. It was
ever more difficult to get him to let me try out the ts55 on a guide rail and the router and
domino machine as well as an RO90 sander.

Getting to the good stuff. The kapex demo on the floor was in horrendous shape. It was the original model they have used as a demo for 3 plus years. Most of the green switches and
buttons were not working. The saftey for getting the saw to come down was missing. Trying
to even swing the mitre table from left to right was a scary process. It was so sticky that
everytime you slid it it would make grinding noises and take he-man strenght to move it.
And yes we went over the process for the release and lock down and stuff. It was also out
of square by at least 6mm cutting some mdf. The lasers did not function at all either.

Next up was the ts55 track saw. It was mounted to the mft table with the track attached.
The saw itself looked brand new with a new blade in it. Another piece of Festool equipment
that looked stunning with its fit and finish. The first straight cut I tried apparently the dealer
had not set the little knobs on the front and back that keep it tracking straight on the track.'
The cut and uneasiness of which it slid were quite disappointing. Then he set it up to a 45
degree angle to show me it could do it with ease. Took his hand off the saw for a moment
while speaking to me while it was beveled and the saw flipped off the track and bounced onto the concrete floor. Ugh was my expression.

Well those 2 machines were the only ones that made me cringe. The router, domino, sander
and drill performed exceptionally well beyond my expectations, after the kapex and track saw
fiasco.

My question about the kapex and reading thorougly about it on this website is, do I take a chance on it? If i make a special case to haul it around in the double axle work trailer to 2
or 3 different jobs a week, will it actually stand the test of time? I am extremely anal about
the set up of my mitre saws. And extremely anal about keeping my tools very clean after
using them daily.

As for the ts55 I think I will pass on them. To many simple adjustments to be made all the time
on site will make it an albatross. And its tippy canoe attitude really crushed my spirits. I think
Mafell will be in my near future for tack saws.

The good news is I want to order a router, a domino, a jigsaw and a drill ASAP.
Feed back on the kapex and model of router, domino and jigsaw as well as a bigger drill than
the cxs will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks a bunch!
TJ

 

 

[jmbfestool]

A Track saw is a MUST have tool.      A NEW TS55 is out TS55R     with some Minor improvements.  

The Mafell is a better saw BUT I dont know what the service is like where you are but here Mafel back up aint as great as Festools.    

So unless you know Mafell will be able to help when it needs repairing then go for Mafell if NOT  then I would go for Festool TS55.

The old Kapex did have problems with the angle adjustment  where it would grind the new ones dont have that problem.   I have had mine for a bit now and still going well I do a lot of site work so mine gets transported ALOT  its a lovely chop saw to use.

I would go for the OF2200   and forget the others untill Festool sorts out the dust extraction on the others.   Alot here on FOG will say it depends what you do cus of the size and weight  but the OF2200 KICKS bottoms  with dust extraction  dust is pretty much non existent with that thing and the POWER is Amazing it is a BEAST!.

I dont own the CXS but I have had a go and it is a nice little light drill but I would deffos go for the bigger drills T15-T18   I believe the CXS is either for light use users OR as a secondary drill.    The large Festool brushless drills are amazing and you wont be disappointed.

A Ro90 and Ro150 sanders are lovely sanders and are good sanders to have in your future festool collection

Cravex Jigsaw ummm... not been over impressed with it but its okay does the job.

JMB

 

[Kev]

Based on your story I think you should call yourseft "The Door Whisperer"

The KAPEX (treated properly) remains accurate over time. You don't sound like someone that would abuse tools ... On the UG trolley with the wings I find the KAPEX suits my personal needs very well - but you need to make your own setup choice (maybe the MFT path for KAPEX support).

I'm fine with the TS55 - a ham fisted demonstration doesn't show any tool in its best light. I wouldn't personally go Mafell (purely from a service and support perspective here in Oz). Yes it will fall of the track at a steep angle - knowing this I won't make the mistake.

The domino to choose is simply a tenon size question ... Small to medium = DF500, bigger means 700XL. All sizes means both.

Your router choice is a complex question as I'm guessing you may be looking at long runs ... The OF 1400 will do this (I have one) but the OF 2200 will do it easier (I want one).

For fine detail routing, the OF 1010 is the hands down choice - I find the OF 1400 too bulky.

I have a CARVEX jigsaw that I'm actually happy with - not available in the US yet. Mixed opinions out there on the CARVEX and I haven't tried the old Festool jigsaw - several here preach Bosch.

I think Festool doesn't make a bad drill. The CXS is a nice light all rounder - the Cxx drills tend more towards cabinet work, with the Txx more traditional multipurpose drilling and screwing. I'd suggest CXS + T15 or T18 with a good range of chucks (the sets work out to be a significant saving).

Kev

 

[Corwin]

Any other Festool dealers in your area?    [tongue]

 

[jlyons]

I am also pretty new to this Festool thing.  Well i mean i have been drooling for over a year, but just bought one.  I got an OF1010.  used it for some freehand planing of different surfaces to make one plane on a wall it was perfect.  Light, lots of control, such fine depth adjustment, good line of sight.  I am really excited for hinges and the like  i think that it will be perfect.

jason

 

[andy5405]

I would go for the OF2200   and forget the others untill Festool sorts out the dust extraction on the others.   Alot here on FOG will say it depends what you do cus of the size and weight  but the OF2200 KICKS bottoms  with dust extraction  dust is pretty much non existent with that thing and the POWER is Amazing it is a BEAST!.

Are you saying the dust collection on the OF1400 is bad? The reason I ask is that it is on my wishlist to improve my dust collection. I use a Dewalt 625 at the moment which really lets the side down when I do edge routing. It is mainly when I am trimming end panels or worktops to final size using a straight bit. I was hoping the chip catcher on the OF1400 would solve the issue. How deep is it and would it catch the dust on a 40mm deep worktop if i were to edge trim it?

 

[Ken Nagrod]

TJ,

I'm no Festool fanboy, but those negative experiences you had and viewed at your local dealer are far from normal.  Your dealer needs a kick in the butt for not caring to maintain/setup/learn the tools properly.  The Kapex issue should have been resolved by the dealer a couple of years ago.  There was a part replacement to fix that issue.  The track saw should have been tuned and ready to go for demos.  TO DEALERS -- How the heck can you as a dealer expect to sell something that you can't even demo well or don't want to?  I don't blame you for feeling the way you do after that experience.  From my experience, you take a LITTLE time to check out/tune up the track saw and as long as you don't drop the thing, it shouldn't need any adjustments for many years.

The CXS seems to be the most widely used drill by people that own more than one drill.  I feel it's a great combination of size, power, battery life and attachments to make it my go-to drill most of the time.  It's not the most powerful 10.8 volt out there, but that's not what it was designed to be.  That's why they make bigger, more powerful drills too.

The routers are a very personal kind of tool.  You need to figure out what fits your situation best, whether it's a single router with all the size collets like the OF 1400 or multiple routers like an OF 2200 for the big stuff and an OF 1010 for the smaller stuff.  Even the MFK 700 for edge banding work and some grooving / profiling that you don't want to use the OF 1010 on.  The routers seem to overlap each other in their abilities, which is why you should try them out in the store, get user opinions, think about your uses and purchase what you believe to be best suited to your work.  At least if you picked the wrong TOOL, you'll have 30 days to try it out and return it for a full refund or credit towards another model.  Accessories aren't part of the 30 day return policy unless your dealer has their own policy.

 

[semenza]

TJ, welcome to the FOG!

What a cool gettin' started story  [cool] 

I can't see any reason  to not go for the Kapex. Your demo experience with it didn't tell you much but  I bet you would not return during the 30 day window  [wink] 

Seth

 

[Tinker]

First off, you might consider trying to find another dealer.  He obviously does not care.
I am a hobbiest but had been in construction for over thirty years.  Whatever tools you get, i am sure you seem to be the type who will take good care of them.

from what you are describing as your work, i think the router combo of 1010 and 2200 would be your best bet.  I have the OF 1000 (pre 1010 model) and the 1400.  My 1000 is the first router I reach for.  For routing door hinges, I don't think there is an easier router to work with.  For my work, the 1400 is plenty big enough, but with your work, I am sure you will find a better use with the 2200.

I got rid of my table saw several years ago, after using my ATF 55 for a couple of years.  With care, and making full use of MFT and clamping elements along with a little immagination, I can do everything with the track saw that I can do with my SCMS (I have a Hitachi 8-1/2 ").  It just takes longer to set up accurately.  I try not to even look at the Kapex without blinders over my eyes.  I dare not touch one.  Very bad news.  I don't even dare to read what others have told you here.  You had a bad experience.  unless you want to be hopelessly hooked, remember that experience.  [eek] 

Actually, i have put my hands on a Kapex.  If i touch one again (by touch, I mean set up for a cut and ran thru that cut) I will not be able to let go of it.  I have talked with a couple of other builders who have used a Kapex and would not be without.  For me, i would go for a Domino set before going for a Kapex.  I think that if you have access to your boss's table saw and a chop saw, the Domino would be more valuable for you.  And keep a close watch over it.  Hand tools are often much lighter than air on big jobs.  I used to paint some of my tools pink.  It seemed pink is much heavier to move than any other color.  :
Tinker

 

[truck90278]

to get a really good feel for Festools, I would suggest signing up for one of the festool classes conducted  at Festool either in Indiana or Las Vegas.  They have a course called "Introduction to Festool".  All there classes are 2 days and you touch ALL the tools, both instructors are extremely knowledgeable and have years of experience in the field.  The only problem with these courses is once you've touched all the tools, your wallet will be empty for a long time

 

[Tinker]

If you really feel you might have a serious problem such as truck90278 suggests, there is a famous anti-biotic that you could take. Sulfadenial  [poke]
Tinker

 

[jmbfestool]

I would go for the OF2200   and forget the others untill Festool sorts out the dust extraction on the others.   Alot here on FOG will say it depends what you do cus of the size and weight  but the OF2200 KICKS bottoms  with dust extraction  dust is pretty much non existent with that thing and the POWER is Amazing it is a BEAST!.

Are you saying the dust collection on the OF1400 is bad? The reason I ask is that it is on my wishlist to improve my dust collection. I use a Dewalt 625 at the moment which really lets the side down when I do edge routing. It is mainly when I am trimming end panels or worktops to final size using a straight bit. I was hoping the chip catcher on the OF1400 would solve the issue. How deep is it and would it catch the dust on a 40mm deep worktop if i were to edge trim it?

Well its no where near as as good as the OF2200   it doesnt come close!       From looking at a OF1400 the dust collection system its not as good!  Well Watch crpaulk video using the smaller festool router!   The dust collection to me looks useless on it.

Ill try find the video

As to if its better than the Dewalt or not I dont know dont own a dewalt sorry

JMB

 

[Ken Nagrod]

I've used the OF 1400 quite a bit and even though I'm not thrilled with the design of the chip catcher (the one that goes in and around the bit), it does pick up the dust enough to make a huge difference over using a router of any brand with no dust collection.  I've found a difference between using the D27 hose vs. the D36 hose and use both depending on whether flexibility is more important or volume of dust collection.

 

[Stone Message]

Hi TJ

Interesting story - I write books too!

I would avoid your original dealer - he is not representative of the Festool norm.

The TS 55 is a great saw and the demo you had does not do it justice at all. Once set up (mine was perfect out of the box) it retains its accuracy even after some abuse. Before you buy a Mafell find a decent Festool dealer and give the TS 55 a second chance.

The OF2200 router is wonderful and I use it rather than my CMT or Dewalt 625. It is easier to handle, has bags of power and is very accurate. Dust collection is amazing.

My Kapex 120 does not get moved from site to site but it does get a lot of use. Again it was perfectly set up out of the box but I did accidentally knock it with a heavy lump of wood and had to re-adjust the bevels - it was simple and is perfect every time just like new.

Peter

 

[JimB1]

I am also pretty new to this Festool thing.  Well i mean i have been drooling for over a year, but just bought one.  I got an OF1010.  used it for some freehand planing of different surfaces to make one plane on a wall it was perfect.  Light, lots of control, such fine depth adjustment, good line of sight.   I am really excited for hinges and the like  i think that it will be perfect.

jason

+1 on the 1010. Dust collection is very good for most scenarios and it's light and easy to handle plus has attachments available for a huge amount of different functions from edge banding to inlay to whatever. I have freehand routed door hinge recesses with this router.

Downsides are: while it's plenty powerful it's not going to make a 1" dado in Hickory or do edge profiles in a 2" slab of cherry in a single pass but can do it in multiple passes. The different template guides or the chip catcher for edge routing require a not included torx screwdriver to change.

There are a lot of active discussions around on the shank sizes. This router can only use 1/4" and 8mm shank bits. Remembering that this router isn't made to handle deep cutting in hardwood, I haven't had an issue yet in maple veneer ply, Maple or Cherry using 1/4" bits. 8mm shaft bits are more readily available in the US now through Lee Valley so that has the potential to allow for deeper cuts more safely then a 1/4" shaft might.

For interior trim and finish work, I would take the 1010 over the 2200 any day of the week. I doubt you'll have any issues it can't handle and the 2200 is physically much larger and much heavier with a very powerful motor. It's not the tool I would use for detail work if I had a choice. It is made for much heavier tasks like edging slab tabletops and breadboard and soapstone countertops. From what you wrote, it doesn't sound like you are doing anything the 1010 can't handle. The 1400 is a good all around router right in between those two. It has a couple of nice features like tool less guide changes, tool less bit changes and the ability to handle 1/2" shank bits but has a larger footprint and more weight then the 1010.

I'd suggest if there are other dealers around you check them out. Sounds like the one you went to isn't the poster boy for Festool marketing

Most of the ones I've been to take care of their demo equipment and make sure it's all setup correctly and have no problem letting you try them. They even let you bring in your own wood to try it on so if you use a lot of a specific type of wood, like I use a lot of maple which can burn easily, you can see how they work for you not just using pine or whatever they have available to play with...

Good luck with the tool hunt. Let us know how it goes.
-Jim

 

[davee]

A slight tangent but I think relevant to your decision making process - my wife purchased me a Kapex just after Christmas.  It performed well, but developed a grinding when adjusting the mitre.  I had to visit Indianapolis on another matter and dropped the Kapex off on Thursday afternoon.  It arrived back at my shop the following Monday and now works perfectly.  Cleaned, calibrated, new blade, parts replaced to fix the grinding, etc.  Great service - thanks to Lester and the service folk - specifically Brad P who signed to work order.

 

[sancho57]

Sounds to me like you went to one of the 2 national woodworking chain stores that sells festools. If so try going to a regular lumber/hardwood store that seels them and caters to contractors.

You will find a entirely different atmosphere

 

[hockey_magnet]

Funny, I'm fairly new to Festool and my two favourite tools are The Kapex and TS 55. (I also have a 1010, RO 90, C15 and MFT/3). They are both incredibly accurate and certainly as others have pointed out, ceratainly durable. My first use for my Kapex was about 600 feet of 8" baseboards with a LOT of cuts! It perfromed flawlessly. The track saw is a game changer and is not finicky at all to adjust. As others have said, find another dealer!

Chris

 

[JimB1]

Sounds to me like you went to one of the 2 national woodworking chain stores that sells festools. If so try going to a regular lumber/hardwood store that seels them and caters to contractors.

You will find a entirely different atmosphere

That's funny I had a opposite experience. The chain stores I've been to have very good Festool demo setups and the local independently owned store doesn't have any demos setup at all, just a 8' section of shelves for Festool stuff. It was neat and organized though.

-Jim

 

[semenza]

I think chain or not chain, it really depends on the guy(s) running the store.

Seth