Help me understand phenolic plywood!!!!

[fritter63]

Hey all, once again, I'm considering a project that uses phenolic plywood (an auxiliary router table for my table saw, similar to those sold by incra, etc). YES, I know you can buy them, NO they don't necessarily meet my specs).

So trying to source some phenolic and once again find it confusing on if I'm finding the right product.

here is one I know is the right thing (ie, that used in jigs and fixtures):
https://makerstock.com/products/phenolic-baltic-birch-plywood-black-1?variant=40728868946017

Cost $145 for a 30 x 48 pre-cut, plus $45 shipping.

So then I called a local place and they get it but they call it "concrete form plywood". Something like this:
https://sylvan-products.com/product/resin-form-film-faced-formply/

at $145 for a full 4x8 sheet.

So.... is this the same stuff?

I remember dealing with this (unsuccessfully) last time I looked into Phenolic. There are all types of phenolic surfaces (paper, etc) and not sure what it is we usually get in woodworking products from Incra, Woodpeckers, etc.

Thanks in advance for any clarification.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Since it’s local, go look at it.

And take a straightedge.

Smooth is not the same thing as flat and you want both in a router table.
If it’s smooth enough you might be able to correct a little “not flat enough” with framing.

 

[Packard]

What is it going to weigh?  This might be quite heavy.

I recall selling to a company that manufactured and installed bus shelters (for waiting passengers).  They used full sheets of 1” plywood covered on both sides for the roofs.  It took 4 men to lift in into place.  Our product weighed 30 pounds, cost twice as much but only needed one installer. The weight of the plywood got us the job.

 

[jeffinsgf]

My personal experience is, if the word "maker" is in the product name or the company name, you're about to take it in the shorts.

It appears to me that it is the same product. I would go to the local place and look at it. If you like it, go for it. If the photo is accurate, it looks like a great product. It's multiple plys of what appears to be birch and a slick surface...sounds like a router table to me.  [big grin]

A few of our products are built with 1" BB that has Formica laminated to both surfaces. I've been lucky enough to score a few flawed sheets and have built some machine stands and other shop furniture with it. I love the stuff. If I didn't have access to it, I'd probably be chasing down the same stuff you're looking at.

For other shop builds I'm also fond of MDO, which your one link had listed just below the phenolic. Sign grade MDO is usually very flat and the face plys are void free, though you might run a cross a void or two in the mid plys. It's fir core instead of birch and fewer, thicker plys, but it's generally much less expensive. The miter saw stand I built at work has an MDO top that I bored MFT style. It has held up exceptionally well for 4 years now. The resin-coated paper surface shows no wear, even with holes bored every 96mm.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

My personal experience is, if the word "maker" is in the product name or the company name, you're about to take it in the shorts.

I think it's as much that as it is the "pre-cut" or "handy-sized" pieces. The same thing happens in the local big box stores. They sell smaller pieces of plywood for as much or more than the whole sheet.
A quick search at Home Depot says about $30 for a 4' x 8' sheet of 23/32 your typical rotary cut pine ply.
That very same material cut down to 2' x 4' sells for $35. If you don't have the ability to haul that full sheet home, that's the cost of convenience. Seems like a pretty stiff price, but they will justify is by saying it costs them to cut it, store it, maintain it as another SKU, and the "loss" of a whole sheet to sell.

I'm pretty lucky, in the same way as [member=7266]jeffinsgf[/member] I have access to off-cuts and leftovers of all kinds of stuff. I always hold onto MDO, BB ply, etc when they come up. That kind of thing makes better jig parts and such.

That phenolic coated ply is usually some nice stuff. It is noticeably heavier, but in the case of a table top, that's not a problem. You can do effectively the same thing by applying laminate (Formica) to the ply you already have, then you even get some color choice. That may not be cost effective though, unless you have to have another color. The really nice stuff is called "micro-dot". It's a dimpled texture that reduces the contact area of the top, making things slide easier.

Personally, I like a larger router table top. Functionally, there is no down-side to that. It's just about whether you have the physical space for it. A bigger table can make your parts feel much more stable as they move.

 

[Packard]

My personal experience is, if the word "maker" is in the product name or the company name, you're about to take it in the shorts.

I think it's as much that as it is the "pre-cut" or "handy-sized" pieces. The same thing happens in the local big box stores. They sell smaller pieces of plywood for as much or more than the whole sheet.
A quick search at Home Depot says about $30 for a 4' x 8' sheet of 23/32 your typical rotary cut pine ply.
That very same material cut down to 2' x 4' sells for $35. If you don't have the ability to haul that full sheet home, that's the cost of convenience. Seems like a pretty stiff price, but they will justify is by saying it costs them to cut it, store it, maintain it as another SKU, and the "loss" of a whole sheet to sell.

I'm pretty lucky, in the same way as [member=7266]jeffinsgf[/member]

[…]Personally, I like a larger router table top. Functionally, there is no down-side to that. […]

No downside if you have a router lift.  Bu without a lift, can make depth of cut changes more difficult as well as bit changes.  Of course, if you are only adding 6”, not much difference.

 

[bobtskutter]

A quick search at Home Depot says about $30 for a 4' x 8' sheet of 23/32 your typical rotary cut pine ply.
That very same material cut down to 2' x 4' sells for $35.

My local big box store has a free cutting service.  I've had them chop an 8x4 sheet into 4 2x4 sheets so they would fit in my car.  I paid the cost of the 8x4 sheet.  The cashier was very confused! 

Bob

 

[Sparktrician]

Woodcraft sells phenolic covered baltic birch plywood, but take your heart meds before you check the price.  I used some when I built my flattening sled, and it was dead-on straight. 

 

[smorgasbord]

Having bought the MakerStock version a year or so ago my take is that it's better than melamine but not as thick/good as a true Formica covered plywood. The pieces I got were packaged well, flat and smooth, with painted edges.

 

[Packard]

For the record, I find that filling the edges of plywood and painting is more durable than edgebanding and paint. 

And a little reading on the subject shows that the original purpose of phenolic plywood was for concrete forms. And apparently those sheets had printing on the encapsulated paper.  It was not a decorative item.

Apparently the physical characteristics lends itself to other applications.  I could not find a list, but apparently there are a small number of USA based manufacturers, though the one I saw was being made in Latvia. 

I have never seen nor used it.  But interesting.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

My local big box store has a free cutting service.  I've had them chop an 8x4 sheet into 4 2x4 sheets so they would fit in my car.  I paid the cost of the 8x4 sheet.  The cashier was very confused! 

Bob

Most of the places around here will give you one free cut. After that, they charge on a per-cut basis.
You still have to find "that guy" too. It takes training to be allowed to use that saw, not every employee can do it. If there isn't one on-shift, you're out of luck.

This is the one I use. It takes up way too much floor space for a simple retailor and the cost-per-cut would have to go waaay up to afford it, in the first place. A place like that wouldn't stock 5' x 12' sheets anyway and probably wouldn't let their employees lift one either.

 

[jeffinsgf]

Okay, now you're just showing off.  [big grin] [tongue]

 

[BigDan]

I ended up with the Sommerfeld Router Table... Thing is a "flight deck" and I built the cabinet designed for it.  Pretty rock solid cabinet, lots of drawers (10), and I use the Triton 3.25 HP router which doesn't need a lift though Im thinking about Milwaukee 3.5 production router.  It also has a "from the bottom adjustment" that doesn't need a lift to operate/work.  Either way, if you have the room, I fully recommend the "flight deck."  It's very heavy and as it sits can turn any router bit I have been able to throw at it.

Good Luck on your design.
Cheers
D

 

[Crazyraceguy]

[member=69213]BigDan[/member] That 3.25HP Triton is fantastic in a table. Ergonomically it is the best thing going. There are lifts out there that compare favorably, but the cost way more that the Triton, and you still need a motor.